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  • Recent Posts

    • My issue with pax is that I can't tell if anyone is cheating. You do a car classing that has no easily identifiable limits to a class. example my evo. its ran as a mod car and SGT1 car with the only difference being how much boost it ran. it went fastest as a SGT1 car by 6 tenths (if it was competing for a Sgt class win would that raise concerns?). VS Gridlife or GTA rules that have very fast to identify limits to the classes. I can walk up to a car and visually place it in a Gridlife class fairly quickly and accurately without knowledge of the car since its rules are based on easily scrutinized aspects. ie tire size and tw, aero size and number of wing elements. Explaining pax classing and how it works is and always has been a hurdle to getting new faces out. the rules are very time consuming and cumbersome to negotiate. the only rules I found more frustrating to class with was SCCA.  Pax has lots of non checkable holes and advantages that are purely based on the cars factory options and class. remember your base model 350z can't have a aftermarket diff without taking pips. But if you have the track pack (VLSD) then you are pip free to swap the diff to a clutch type of your choice well retaining your base pax.(I'm not a fan of these loop holes) This year we seen a 3 second delta with our frs between 2 setups that pax the same. Pax sees no advantage from 2 way coilovers but the transponder told us otherwise. how is it fair to a low class like gt that I can show up on kw 2 ways ($$$) and pax/Class the same as a stock ish frs on entry level suspension? the gridlife rules would punt me up a class and maintain the spirit of a low class to be a entry level stepping stone.   my closing thoughts. Pax is not time attack. Time attack is a raw time competition with classes based around tires/ aero and engine size/ aspiration. the best driver does not always win, nor the best prepared car.  regardless of what is decided I will see you all out in 2025 to continue chasing PB's and records
    • If you're wanting to and knowing that you will be competing wouldn't it be a good idea to do research to see which cars work best in their respective classes? There always have been and will always continue to be cars that do well and others that won't/don't.  Your "reasoning" seems to come across saying the world should be a "fair" place.  
    • You're right this isn't Nascar, F1 or autocross. The only time attack that I've heard of that actually uses a factoring system is OTA. There's maybe more but the majority of time attack events that I've seen have regulated classes that compete raw time.  Why do we need to "properly prepare" a car for its class if pax is supposed to be the great equalizer?  We've all seen numerous flaws in the pax system so I would disagree with the statement "all is equal".  I understand everyone has a different budget and it's important that those with a lower budget still have a chance at winning. I think with good regulations and classes there can be room for modifications that improve lap time. With a limit of course, too many modifications would bump you into the next class. This makes the slower classes more favorable to lower budgets. We all know that racing isn't cheap and it's definitely not free. If there are "enthusiasts that don't feel the need or have the ability to put any money into a vehicle" i personally don't think that's how you win a championship in time attack. I don't think they should be "penalized" but I think it should be acceptable to allow some modifications within a class.
    • So what's your suggestion then? Afaik there are no other factoring systems that work as well as PAX overall. He who spends the most wins all?
    • But therein lies the problem... some cars and preparations are more equal than others. One of the biggest flaws I've seen over the years are PAX-favorable cars or PAX-favorable modifications that give runners a loophole or edge into scoring better PAX times. That sort of system should not be used to dictate final results.
    • If your car is properly prepared for whichever class it's in - all is equal. That's pax. Not all enthusiasts feel the need, nor have the ability to put the money into a vehicle. Should they be penalized? This isn't Nascar or F1.
    • Looks like I'm listed two separate times under the novice listing. (David Gregory) 
    • That's not what I'm saying, I think it takes both to win. As car enthusiasts why are we trying to take the car out of the equation?
    • So it's the car that wins the race not the driver?
    • I don't think there's any honor in winning a race with a slower lap time. If I'm not mistaken in 2022 everyone was competing for the same trophy so 150hp cars were racing against 600hp cars. I think that's ridiculous. If I understand correctly the pax factor is suppose to eliminate any advantage that might come from modifying or building a faster car. Then the people that put in the most time and money are the ones at the biggest disadvantage. That seems like a bad way to try and grow this sport. I agree driver skill is more important then what they drive but I think it should be acceptable to put time and money into modifications to gain lap time.
    • I dyno tested the Camaro with Shell 91 and got up to 4 degrees of Knock Retard from 3600 rpm all the way to 7000 rpm then went back with Shell 93 and running the exact same tune, I got less than .5 degrees blip of Knock Retard at 4600 rpm. On a side note, I then added some Boostane (purchased from Phil at www.fasttoys.net) and was able to add 6 degrees of timing without getting any Knock Retard, so that stuff really works at increasing octane levels.
    • Is it actually 93 though? Do they still have 91 as well? Curious if the same tanker trucks that make the rounds to stations with 91 just drop by there as well, or if they have a one-off truck that delivers 93. Not sure how the logistics would make sense for only a single station (or two) to have 93.
    • The Shell on Sterling Lyon by Rec Room also now has 93.
    • Finally read through all the discussion (5 pages) we had back in late 2022 in preparation for the 2023 season. Brings back some memories I had forgotten.  Deja vu all over again?
    • Once again, awesome job of running timing & scoring, David! Who needs expensive transponders and timing equipment when you can have an Excel spreadsheet with a "work for free" master at the controls. Gotta like this grassroots (literally) DirtX thing that we've got going on. It was great to see a record number of entries on a beautiful late October day hanging out and enjoying this "social event".
    • My own two cents; I've always found PAX to be an extremely flawed system. While it can be interesting & curious to see where a specific car may place roughly in relation to cars in a different class, I don't feel that final results and standings should be based on the artificial numbers that PAX produces.
    • Jeremy, I did not use your name because you are not the only one not having raced Time Attack at WSCC under the PAX ruling. I wanted to clear up some of the incorrect statements that have been made. You asked what the poll was for? To find out how the majority of the people feels about this topic. I fully understand your stance on PAX, and I am not saying that you are wrong, nor that you are right. However, just because you don't like PAX (I draw that assumption from your comments), it does not mean that other people don't get to voice their opinion. The purpose of a poll is to give everybody an equal opportunity to express their opinion. This poll is there to find out what the majority of Time Attackers want - not what the loudest or brashest Time Attackers want.  
    • So what was the point of this poll then?    It’s ok, you can call me by name we all know you’re eluding to me.     I did Autocross for 6 year with PAX since you asked. 
    • Kyle, if it were that easy, we wouldn't need classes at all. Just beat Russ Friesen and Kaycee Coyle, and you win the championship!
    • Time Attack is a time based competition. The concept is simple, drive your car around a track and whoever does a lap in the shortest time wins. That’s it.
    • How would local autocross survive anywhere?   Why do so many other regions use pax?
    • I am interjecting here to clarify some things, and to straighten out some incorrect statements some people make. The PAX system that we have been using pre-2023 is the system that has been used by the Ontario Time Attack group for a long time. They use two different PAX factors; one for slow tracks, and one for fast tracks. Our PAX factors really closely mimic their fast-track PAX. We are definitely not the only ones using this system. The PAX factor set-up has been used in our club for a long time; it was already being utilized when I joined WSCC. Only in 2023 the then-active Time Attack director decided to do away with the 13 classes by combining them into four classes. There were most definitely advantages to the PAX system, as there were disadvantages. It needs to be said that some of the most vocal opponents of the PAX system didn't even race under the PAX system. They are definitely entitled to their opinion, but what are they basing their opinion on?   While I appreciate all the different comments about other classification systems out there, for 2025 I have decided to go with what we have and know. We had a major discussion about utilizing Gridlife, SCCA, modified SCCA etc. some time back, and I am gladly willing to open this discussion again now that we have a track that is smooth enough to invite other racers to. However, for everybody to even get an idea how their car performs on this -essentially new- track, I am not willing to change technical rules. Let's all get a few laps on the repaved track before we shake everything up. 
    • I don’t believe PAX should be anywhere.  Time Attack or the sprit of time attack is building the best car you can and driving it to the fastest lap you can. Not racing a calculator and guy in a car that is 9 seconds slower in a stock car or near stock car.  I have never heard of PAX used in any other sanctioning body’s time attack classing. The only place I have heard it used is Autocross. As you can tell I don't care for it.  I did Time Attack in BC from 2017-2021 and in that time they had a bispoke classing system that was out dated and participation had dwindled to 4-8 car fields as a support event for road racing. Classing was changed in 2019 to follow SCCA Time Trials new classing system. They now regularity sell out entire events for time attack, full days multi day events, and even evening events. They have events at multiple tracks now it’s revived the sport in BC.  Im not suggesting we adopt that classing just showing that a big change like that can turn things around.  If some really want or need to have the PAX great, put your name on a list of drivers that want PAX and grab your calculators to fight it out. The rest of us will do Time Attack.       
    • Randy Pobst says autocross makes you a better road racer Read the rest of the story here  
    • I apologize for assuming that the pax system being used was a common one. I didn't know that it was a one off. That doesn't change my views on using pax for time attack but it does on using the pre 2023 WSCC pax. I would vote for using an established pax system for the 2025 time attack season.
    • I truly have no skin in this game other than maybe wanting to try some time attack down the road, but why would PAX work for one, but not for the other? Or is that not what you meant?
    • By Best Lap   By Best Overall Time 0-Holden.pdf 1-Rohochyi.pdf 2-Epp.pdf 2-Marcoux.pdf 5-Lysak.pdf 9-Uebele.pdf 29-Popplestone.pdf 42-BryceM.pdf 42-ScottM.pdf 47-Gregoire.pdf 62-Balaz.pdf 66-Eastwood.pdf 69-Leclaire.pdf 74-Theriault.pdf 88-Demchenko.pdf 147-Zaag.pdf 179-Gordienko.pdf 488-Wowk.pdf 999-Gordon.pdf
    • As per our October club meeting, we decided to call the championship as being finished. The best six out of eight races are being tallied up, with the requirement of having to have participated in at least five events to be counted towards the championship.
    • This was the previous discussion from 2022 https://forums.wscc.mb.ca/index.php?/topic/12454-2023-pax-classing-discussion/  
    • How did this end up? Are these now official? 
    • This whole classing thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth after the last meeting. Let’s get through a season on the new surface and then let the next time attack director re evaluate. Mathematical formulas have no place in Time Attack period. PAX belongs in Autocross and that’s it.    My vote is copy a popular time attack classing system from the U.S. and paste into our rule book. We are too small a group to have our own classing system it just further isolates us from others coming from other states and provinces.    rant/
    • Hey Chris, I have your shovel.  There were a couple pieces left beside my trailer at the end of the day.  I can hold onto it until next track day, or PM me if needed before then. I also have someone's rake. Steve
    • Pax allows more people to compete against each other as fairly as possible. Wanting fewer classes grouping unevenly prepared cars seems like more of a participation trophy for the people with faster cars and fatter wallets.
    • I find that when you have more time to think, plan, and react its less challenging to go fast. Maybe that's why pax seems to favor slower cars? As stated, the track can also favour certain vehicles. We see this at autocross all the time. Pax also assumes a vehicle is fully prepped to the class rules and is being driven to it's maximum performance capabilities on an ideal surface. Does everyone have the best car for each class fully prepped and the skills to use it? If not, there's a bunch of invalid points being made.
    • I completely agree.  For the sake of science, changing one variable at a time makes the most sense .....and a new track surface is a big change that will impact everyone.
    • I hear what you're saying Brian, but I don't believe the PAX system was used in 2023.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but if you look at the PAX adjustments in the 2021 and 2022 seasons, at several events, I recall times were "paxing into" the 57's and low 58's.
    • I had a whole big reply posted on my initial reaction to this poll a couple weeks back, but I deleted it quickly as I feared it would open up a can of worms. But it looks like a few more racers who were competing the last time we ran PAX seem to see it exactly the way I do. It was a good system, but it leaned a bit heavy towards the slowest cars with the newest adjustments that were made. My top times in one of the slowest classes, gave the record breaking ACR, and anyone else in that higher class, a next to impossible time to beat. I always thought a bit more tweaking was all it needed, but it was ditched anyway.  I don't pretend to understand the amazing brains and math that goes into these calculations, I just see the end results on race day. All I know is that I drove the pants off that poor little red car!  haha I don't understand why we can't just run whatever classes any other track in North America uses for theirs, why do we always have to be customizing things? Is it because we're car people? It would be nice to be on the same page as if I were to race elsewhere.  My choice to vote for keeping things the same was based on the past talks we have all had about the current PAX system. It has more flaws than the way we are currently running, and sadly, those were our only options. And the track being repaved will be a big enough change for one year, in my opinion.  
    • i will throw them into the back of my truck if you tell me when and where you want to meet
    • That chart tells me, a GT1 car has to run a 1:03.517 to even match the GT4 record at 1:06.013. That's 1.209 seconds the PB for GT1 needs to find, or be in equivalent of current RAW times of the SGT class, but with a GT Car with PAX...  Even my PB in GT1 is 2.379 seconds slower than what's required to match the GT4 record with PAX. But hey, if we need participation awards via math more than driver skill to make everyone happy, maybe Road Racing is calling next year.
    • Very interesting comment @Rustfree  and it got me thinking about the math.  I used Tyler's list of fastest lap times from 2023 and combined that with the PAX factor we used in 2023. Your fastest time of 58.962 takes a beating because MOD1 (I'm assuming you're MOD1) uses a PAX factor of 1.052, resulting in an adjusted lap time of 1:02.028 (ouch!). However, if you actually classed your car as MOD3, then the PAX factor is 1.0 and you would have the fastest overall PAX adjusted time. I went through the rest of the fastest times for the various classes, but didn't find anyone that broke the one-minute barrier. You'll notice that most of the adjusted times are hovering around the 61 second lap time. Unfortunately, Tyler's list of fastest times uses only the four major classes (MOD, SGT, GT, T), but doesn't break it down into its sub-class.  I took some liberties, knowing most of the drivers, and assigned a sub-class as shown below. Maybe the PAX system isn't so bad after all?     Raw Pax Factor Adjusted Time MOD 1 58.962 1.052 62.028 MOD 2 60.075 1.012 60.796 MOD 3 60.436 1 60.436 SGT1 61.712 0.988 60.971 SGT2 63.819 0.976 62.287 SGT3 63.844 0.964 61.546 GT1 64.726 0.952 61.619 GT2 65.671 0.94 61.731 GT3 65.829 0.928 61.089 GT4 66.013 0.916 60.468 T1 67.581 0.904 61.093 T2 68.562 0.892 61.157 T3 69.701 0.88 61.337  
    • I would like to point out participation is not dropping off entirely because of classing or the rulebook. Our trailer was not full this year or the prior year. The track conditions have kept our car count down as it deteriorated. This will change with repaving. 
    • Thanks to Mike D as well! He brought lunch!! And did some other stuff…😁
    • I'm missing a square-blade shovel as well. Any leftover skid-steers with a bucket or blade?  I'd love to have one of those as well.  🚜
    • My only issue .....going back to the 13-class system that was previously in use, had cars being "paxed" into lap-time territory that has never actually been achieved.
    • Ya if you still have them. Just saw the response now. 
    • This might be with Steve, he had a couple leftovers in his truck at the end, we suspected they belonged to Glen.
    • I am missing a square blade shovel with a green plastic handle on it. I imagine it ended up in someone's vehicle 
    • Big shout out to all the great volunteers that came out to GMP to help put some of the finishing touches on the beautiful new and smooth asphalt that our beloved track now has. A lot of effort and equipment was required to apply a smooth transition to the new track surface edge in order to ensure it was safe and protected and ready for some great racing next spring. In no particular order.... Greg Eastwood, Wally Butler, Nate Butler, Will Popplestone, Richard Coyle, Tim Gordienko, Gerd Uebele, Murray Burkett, Tyler Goosen, Jim Worton, Steve Leiding, Brett MacDermott, Dason Wowk, Llew Taylor, Chris Gauthier, Brian Wiebe, Andrew Cobb, Glen Gordon, David Klassen, Brad Epp, Mike Gordon, Al Marcoux, Wayne Kehler....apologies if we missed anyone! What an awesome volunteer work crew!
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