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Wouldn't you know it - no sooner do I read through every page of the 2022 rules, they release the 2023 rules.  Oh well, at least the changes are shown in red text, so that makes it easy. GRIDLIFE 2023 TRACKBATTLE RULES (squarespace.com)

The area you defined is the area where we do the figure 8 exercise. The skid pad is beyond corner 9 where AutoX / Drift and the slalom exercise from our competition school is held.   Please introduce yourself. It’s always nice to know who’s showing interest in racing at GMP.

Where are you running skid pad now? Last time I was at the HPDE (years ago) it was just up and right of corner 1.  Where the arrows in the picture come and go. Is it now right of corner 9 where autocross happens?

Thanks for your post @rocknrollron For 2023 we’re looking at one division only, with a subdivision for Novice.

GridLife released there rules updates  and most of it is for GLTC with some minor clarifications for other classes.    I think if GridLife is the way we go it needs to be all the classes not just a selection of them. As Gridlife has seen certain classes will attract people that may not have thought about time attack before in there car before(Sunday cup). 

Why don’t you introduce yourself so we know who we’re talking to.   Welcome here.

If we were running an endurance race I would stage the pits on the skid pad. I wouldn’t want to release cars at corner one.

hey Ron I think you missed the tire width/tw limits for the street mod class. Street mod limits to 295 width 200tw for fwd and rwd, 255 200tw for awd cars.  the zl1’s would end up in track modern same with the gt3-rs and acr.    kaycee’s vette is actually the only one that as it ran would end up in unlimited, and that is purely due to running slicks. His car on a 60tw or higher would fit into track modern also

I just read the GridLife rules. First read only of the classification portion, so I could be making some mistakes. I generally like the easy to fit classes and the goal of making things inclusive. I looked at a handful of group A T/A cars that regularly run (sorry in advance, if I didn’t look at yours). After doing this I quickly realized that certain cars will clearly rank highest without there even being a close 2nd. For this reason, I might be more inclined to choose a system that more strongly considers power to weight amongst other things.   NA Mustangs, NA Camaros, NA Corvettes - Street GT Turbo 6s like BMW and Supra, etc - Street GT Kaycee’s yellow Corvette - Street Mod because I believe it has a cam upgrade (other mods may also put him in Street Mod) - My point here is that I suspect a car similar, but that still qualifies for Street GT, would likely be setting the time to beat. ZL1-1LE - Street Mod GT3-RS because MSRP is greater than $115k - Street Mod ViperACR - same as GT3-RS - Street Mod (Russ will likely be setting the time to beat in this class)    Darin and I run engines swaps (mine 4cyl swapped to 8 and Darin rotary swapped to 8). So, we are both thrown into Track Modern. 944-LS Swap because it jumped from 4cyl to 8 (greater than 2) - Track Modern RX8-LS Swap because it jumped from rotary to 8 - Track Modern *I, myself, am not concerned by this - we are only 2 cars and they are highly modified and therefore hard to fit them fairly in any system.   Lotus Super 7 - Sorry, I do not know enough about it to know for sure. 4cyl turbo but I don’t know what it weighs or if it is even considered to be closed wheel. It maybe classed as Super Unlimited.   Although I did not look at the other classes,  the Street class will be very large - I would not be surprised that certain cars will consistently run up front in each class. Driving skill can make up for a lot but it might not be enough in some instances. For relatively novice drivers (myself included), GridLife would generally be fine. I don’t think it is the best system for experienced competitive drivers. But we all know that spec classes (or even carts) are great for that and perhaps anyone looking for this might find it in with the right group of cars in any one of the GridLife classes (maybe Club TR or even Sundae Cup). You may just need a different car than you have today.   After all this - the “spirit of competition“ could drop cars down or move cars up depending on their competitiveness. Perhaps if someone is running away with a class could be graduated into a faster group and those at the bottom could be moved down.   Someone else asked - what is the goal of our organization and for T/A. Best that I understand, it would be very hard to win AutoX without being one of the top drivers. We have OpenLapping/HPDE for people to experience driving fast in a safe environment. Is T/A the next progressive step towards competition and Road Race is the final step if you want to enter more of a driver’s competition? Are we big enough and is there interest in having both GridLife as well as a 2nd system for closer head-to-head driver competitions in dissimilar street cars?

If it is in the future possibilities and you are paving this year you might want to consider a good on and off ramp that would allow outside accessible pits. In the areas circled below. Specifically on the right where skid pad is typically done. Gives you options in the future.   

It’s not on the table for 2023 but possibly in the future.

A single annual race in conjunction with Alberta would be a interesting idea. Make it a Western Championship.  The biggest issue is that pits would have to be moved to figure 8 section so fuel runs could be done. Alternatively you could run with a parc ferma at lunch hour.  There are a few Saskatchewan cars you'd get. Pulling the alberta Cars would be a challenge. It is a long tow. Making it a Western Championship would help. 

I’ve looked at Gridlife classing and it’s fairly clear that my 350Z would be in “Street”.    But we have a pretty simple TA competition schedule currently . . . but Gridlife!?!? Oooo boy, that would have a learning curve!

I think having seen what shows up for TA at GMP these classes best cover the majority of competitors. The other GridLife classes would easily hold the outlying entrants. ClubTR could be a big class hosing most the 4cyl engine swaps out there, kswap Miatas, FRS, Hondas etc.  I agree dropping the spec tire thing locally is a good idea and just stick to the TW ratings.    I would be stoked to make my car a ClubTR class car.    EDIT: Gridlife is releasing a new/updated rule book in a few weeks so should keep an eye on that too. 

Something just to note. The Global time attack/ super lap and Gridlife are widely overlapping of each other. Couple small key differences on the classes but largely you can build a car for one and likely attend either of there events in the same class.   WTAC is the summit of time attack. It’s the highest level the craziest cars and professional drivers in the top class. Because its focused so primarily on the top pointy end of the sport there really isn’t much in way of a entry level class. There “ clubsport” class cars are honestly likely faster then anything that’s got a licence plate at gmp.    a step back from the pure insanity on wtac in my eyes would be GTA/SLB. This is the closest rule set to wtac in North America. Although there is the benefits of some more entry level classes that really help inclusion of the everyday enthusiasts. They still carry over spec tires. I still see lots of gaps at the bottom end of there rule sets that would leave many cars ultimately non competitive even in the lowest class.    Gridlife rules set. The top classes essentially overlap gta (unlimited/track mod / streetmod) without a spec tire. The lower classes / near stock car classes is what make them interesting vs the others.  Street gt is essentially the fast modern v8 turbo 6cyl class that have limited modifications. This class would be big at gmp. The other class is club tr. 2.5l n/a or smaller or 1.6l turbo and smaller class with some aero modifications aloud. Motor swaps are also fair play if they meet the rules. I personally love this class as it opens people up to building fast and cost effective cars. It is the missing link I see in every other rule set.    SCCA is to many classes to cover quickly. With lots of technical information needed for the modification end. My worry would be not having enough cars to fill classes. Might become a participation trophy rule set for our car count and just as much complexity as we currently have explaining rules to new participants.    OTA- raw time classes. Could work pretty good. We use the classing already so I won’t go in depth on it. The big draw back I see with the OTA (and scca) rule sets is the absolute lack of competition you have to accept if you want to modify your car in a logical way to what actually nets a faster lap time for your car. Vs what the rule book lets you do fairly penalty free.    witch ever rule set we go with I would say we don’t stray to far from it to the point it would be considered a custom rule set. The only thing I would say should be changed to some of the rules sets would be the removal of any spec tire in a class. Spec tires are great in a competition side but they can also make the sport a lot more expensive. I think keeping it open for people to shop around for a better price on there consumables is something I wouldn’t want to see taken away. It wouldn’t limit people from coming to race with us and at max would mean a change of tires if anyone from gmp wanted to race another track with that rule set  This is just my view on kinda a overall of the rule sets and my takes on what works and doesn’t work with them. I really like gridlife as a overall of competition and accessibility of the sport 

If you vote for OTA you’re voting for either. This is just prelim to narrow it down!

I'd like to throw in the ota raw time classes into the mix as well. It ditches the Pax system and goes to 4 classes that seem a bit more tamed down compared to grid life rules.    The classes take into account tire size and compound. Pax never took tire size into account and was a huge miss.

Matt, OTA has 2 different rule sets, can you clarify if it's the Pax rule set or the raw time rule set?

Let’s try and reel this in a bit.   Please vote!   PAX vs. Class Champ Preferred Rulebook  

Please vote!

Please vote!

This was a very interesting read with great pictures. Thank you for making this!

Nice post Mig   I can confirm there will be a Rookie program as well as an EXTREME (Unlimited/Open) class.

Hello all! Ill start by saying that I've only attended one weekend of TA but many of hot lapping and AutoX in the past. Being able to build a car know where it classes locally and anywhere else if valuable. I think that a spec series and SCCA style rules are good ideas. When I first got into the WSCC I kinda lost my mind reading rule books trying to figure out how to build a car to have fun today and make dreams come true of playing in the states/competing with their AutoX circuits. Sticking with stock has its advantages, but I and I am sure have lofty dreams of building/owning/running a caged car to push things as far as possible safety.  1) I see the conflict around shifting PAX factors, and I noticed the same. The classifications didn't quite make sense to me. I noticed that my 3100 pound 200hp/200 TQ, 3.0L E46 320i, which had every bolt on performance mod, put me in GT1 a few years prior. And then my stock 4.0L 400hp/ 290 ft/lbs M3 of 3600 pounds also landed in GT1. I did not do the math on raw and converted times, and it some ways it seems fun to have these cars slotted in. But my real adversaries in the E46 were FRS/BRZs I could walk(  ) if I didn't screw up, and thus were closely matched. Which leads me to point 2) A spec series or a spec-ISH series could be fun and competitive. If the right kind of polling and surveying was done we could figure out who in OUR CLUB wants to show up and is showing up and what cars they bring!! and we could cluster them together. Some spec series have different makes and models in the same categories.  There are BMW challenge and Honda challenge races in the states. Some of which follow grid life rules. But their classing system is beyond me, but they seem to accurately slot cars of different levels of stockiness, aero and or power upgrades really well together. We don't need to have manufacture series, but maybe spec or series classifications would make sense for what our car community needs short term? Before inviting others to play 3) Thirdly, one thing that confused me about the desire to have grid life or other imported rule books was the non standardize use of safety equipment and the vague classing. I was a big nay sayer then because when you look at who turns up to those events internationally and what the build philosophy/ goals are, it is big power, big aero high speed cornering. You don't see light weight NA builds or mechanical only tire grip/formula cars at them. Also some racing series have cars with Half cages, or bolt in roll bars (monkey bars) competing against cars with FIA euro cages or hybrid cage designs with a lot of structure but without door cross bars for street-ability.  4) Lastly coming back to PAX and getting more people to events. I had a friend excited to build some weird vintage European car, and twin charge it, and basically retro high boost high down force car. But I explained the PAX system and classing and how it would be hard to be competitive, and it turned him right off. And that was a bummer. I think there is value in having an unlimited class, or a novice class. Or even a spectator class. Pikes Peak has a fun classing structure, including a time attack for their unique course challenges where crazy tubular chases builds or extreme high boost high aero builds are needed.

Amazing work as always, thanks for all your efforts.

Finally another Aficionado! Check out our Season Wrap-Up Edition Enjoy! Aficionado 2022-3 Online.pdf

So was there a dance off? Video?     

5/5 - 100%    Thanks Brad

Great discussion, thank you Mat for facilitating this conversation and committing to moving TA forward this year! I don’t have experience with the other classing systems so I’m glad other members do. Here are my thoughts: 1.       I agree with many of you that we don’t need an overall champion and that the best in each class should be recognized. This year and in past years, the funnest weekends were when I raced against similar cars in my class. 2.       Our current PAX system penalizes modifications heavily – so it almost always makes sense to run stock but that is not appealing to most car people. Simple tweaks and upgrades can make most cars much more enjoyable on the track but likely not as competitive - So I like the idea of having classes that allow both stock cars and encourage modifications – then people that want, can build their dream race cars and be competitive. 3.       Related (to above), if you’re a rookie and your car is already modified (most change something) then you’re going to have an uphill battle right out of the gate and may lose interest in competing - So I like to idea of a Novice/Rookie Class to hook new racers. 4.       We need to convert more Race School students into TA registrants. The classes of 2020 and 2021 did not create many TA racers and the 2022 class had only a couple come out this year so I don’t have high hopes for their attendance next year. A second or abbreviated school might help. 5.       Although I don’t know what the solution is - Ideally the TA system we go with will attract new local members to the track now, and will be more compatible or more easily compatible with other systems to attack racers from other jurisdictions the future. Thanks. Looking forward to next season! Brad

I think if we can get the right rule set in place and get some records going it will feed itself. Good competition and firm records will pull people from further distances.  

Part of the 'problem' with the WSCC (maybe I should call it a challenge?) is we are so committed to making racing affordable, we actually don't generate sufficient revenue to properly finance our own operations, nevermind creating incentives to attract out of Province competitors.  This is not an insurmountable issue, but the current economics don't make it possible. 

Thanks David One thing is for sure. Our weekend schedule will always host 60 minutes of open track. I’ve already committed us to that!  We’ve sent in our request to GMP and I expect we will have at least one open track weekend. I’ll be twisting @donrolandofurioso’s arm to hold a second licensing school for individuals who are committed to compete in 2023.       

Regardless of having a PAX system / or not / 4 classes or 15 classes, there's a couple of issues that will remain: People who are strongly competitive will spend money on getting the fastest vehicle they can put in the field, within the scope of the class rules People who are not spending money will not be competitive The whole problem of strongly competitive participants is that there's a winner . . . and the rest are all LOSERS  I like the idea of dropping the overall championship and having class championships . . . more winners (not that I ever see myself in that rarified circle!!) I like the idea of adopting a classing system that's widely used and not tailored to GMP. One benefit might be attracting out of province people, but in my mind the main benefit is that it removes any semblance of local bias. I like the idea of a rookie class. I wouldn't qualify for that anymore, but it might attract rookies to the events. I'm going to be attending Fridays for giving my friends rides around the track and helping any rookies that might ask for help.  I like the idea of mixing up Open Lapping and TA / Road Race in the same days. It gives new people exposure to TA & Road Race while having some fun themselves. On weekend this year, I was doing TA, but also gave some newbies a ride around the track . . . I had to ask the stewards permission to do the ride on an Open Lapping session, it's not a usual thing . . . maybe it should be. I like the idea of promoting and recognizing the accomplishment of setting new personal best times. Anyone can do that, either by improving the vehicle and/or learning better techniques / driving practices. I can celebrate that for myself and those around me. That's fun for me! What ever the decision on Classing/PAX is, it's going to be another great year, having fun, learning things, going faster!

The more this thread expands the more it seems to me that we need to focus more on the best fit for our membership, and less on assimilation.

The WSCC isn’t in a position for that right now. After fixing our track different story. Let’s be honest, until the work is done we shouldn’t be inviting anyone. 

I’m planing on doing all 3 next summer if I can swing it too in one trip. I also want to go to a few track down south.    A track worth the trip for is Area27 and the Ridge both incredible tracks. 

We would almost be better to try and target folks from North Dakota and Minnesota if possible. They probably wouldn't want to come to an unpaved track though.    Some very fast cars reside in North Dakota. Jeremy Swenson and Shawn Kresbach both reside in Fargo and have crazy fast cars, as well as all the crazy evos are from Minnesota area.    I have been to Alberta before and it is quite a hike to get there. Ran castrol and stratotech and it was a ton of fun. Stratotech is pretty cheap just brutal on tires, castrol is expensive and also brutal on tires lol. 

That’s the problem with our distance from other tracks. It was cheaper $/per track time to go to Colorado then Edmonton. Maybe not anymore with the exchange rate being not so in our favour. But that is something GMP does have over the Alberta tracks. Multi day events. It’s worth the drive when you can make a 3 day race weekend out of it. If the tow bill gets cut up over 3 days it kinda works out cheaper then when we went west for 1 day events. (There is now a way to do 3 track days in a weekend in Edmonton area but it would be a lot of work. Loading up and moving to a different track everyday to hit castrol, strato and strawberry creek. It’s on my list to do but it seems like something I’ll enjoy more after then during lol)    is a tow fund a possibility for time attack?   

I don’t think that is unique to this group. I just had to ask to better understand. 

Truth. We’re really good at asking people to come to GMP, we’re not great at returning the favour.

Im all for alignment of rules so we don’t have all these small groups with different rules and classes. Maybe this is better brought up later as it’s not totally relevant but has anyone spoken with the other TA directors in BC and AB to see if there is any interest in a Western Championship? It’s been brought up enough in here I feel it’s worth asking.  If the above answer is yes then I would ask who would be willing to go to an event in BC or AB if they host one?  I suspect it would be a very small number if any with the cost of fuel for a trip like that. I don’t want to be a downer but I just don’t see the return on investment for them to come here or us go there.    I'm my case being from BC I don’t think even I could justify the $3200ish alone in fuel.     

I echo Mat’s comments. So far most of the comments under this thread have shown a lot of thought and energy has gone into finding solutions that will help move the discipline forward, and that is exactly the energy we’re looking to harness as we consider our options for 2023. But as a reminder we have standards of conduct rules on the forum and we need to keep this discussion respectful, so I’d ask everyone to not make personal comments directed at other Club members or make personal attacks in response to comments.  If you do, your post will be removed.  Finally, my two cents. I’ve never raced in T/A and don’t understand any of the black magic you people engage in to determine who is the winner based on classes or modifiers. It’s all Greek to me. So that disqualifies me from having an opinion about which system is better for the WSCC and our racers at GMP.  However, if we genuinely want to pursue a regional championship and attract competitors from other clubs, rather than just glorify our event by adopting a grandiose title, we need to consider using a consistent rule set with those other clubs. Otherwise you build disincentives into your program, rather than incentives for people to attend.  Ultimately that may not be the priority for most of our competitors and the focus may be on finding a solution that works in-house for our own Club championship. If so, that isn’t necessarily wrong, it’s just a difference in emphasis, but we need to be cognizant of the consequences associated with whatever solution is ultimately adopted. 

I really don’t want this thread to get hijacked.    If you wanna scrap, show up at the banquet and settle it on the dance floor…or even better on here, in the DM’s.   Dont make me host a festivus party…    

Oh, the irony….

Darin, please don't bring in road racing rules when you seem to have no idea of all classes. I am able to travel anywhere in North America with both my cars and race in a long established classes, with exception of tires. That's why I have built the cars the way I did. If you guys have issues with tin tops, that's the clubs fault by not adhering to established rule sets and take the do what we want attitude. Its not always better to go this route. Simply do a little homework. Not chiming in on TA as I don't follow it so have no idea, except you need to set goals first and work backwards to figure out how to accomplish the goals step by step. As for some comments here, they not true  such as Mat saying the word BOLD stand. It was a voting process and not everyone agrees and has the freedom to pick their own. It should not be seen as a personal attack. I disagreed with how many abstained from voting, but again that is their choice must be respected.  This bickering looks bad on the club.  

I’m going to thank each of you for your thoughts. I can see points being made on all sides.    Now we point forward. Everyone will have a chance at a championship in 2023 if they build for their class and hone their skills as drivers. This is our goal. This is our focus.   @Dnfwm @Ianfromduff @donrolandofurioso

I’m glad you guys got to air some things out here and now we can hopefully move on from there and not look back.    ALL of the discussion above seems positive to me but I’d like to make sure from this point we’re lazer focused on looking forward not back. To be clear, we will not be endorsing any model that is custom fabricated for Gimli. However it will most likely be a widely accepted classing structure (SCCA etc.) that has been abbreviated to hold us to something like 5 classes rather than 15. For example, let’s take the T class from 2022. Instead of having cars spread between T1, 2 & 3, splitting the class down the “middle” T1 cars having to “tune down” or limit mods so they fit in T2 and the T3 cars have to step it up to be competitive. This is only an example. This is something I had to do almost yearly in road race to stay with my group. TA is a very competitive discipline. You are likely going to have to make some changes. Let’s be honest, the days of showing up with an unprepared car and expecting to be able to win a championship are over. That’s not to say that anyone should feel like they HAVE TO mod their car. Anyone is welcome to come out and join a class and improve themselves as a driver. If you’re expecting to win a championship, you’ll likely have to put in some work prior to your event. Regardless on what we decide on the 8th of December please understand that this WILL BE A SHAKEUP. That’s why we are trying to give everyone 4-5 months to prepare their cars “to be competitive” in their classes. 2023 is going to look different. It’s going to take some adjustment. I believe it will be worth it. Let’s try something new and make racing at GMP even more competitive. TA is the new headlining discipline at GMP. Let’s take the step up.   There’s more than one driver deserving of an annual championship. Let’s get it!

Kirkey race seat Model 3650  16” intermediate 20deg Comes with the cover  Never mounted  $250

Sorry about that, should be editable for all now.

I think a large factor to the times improving in the gt/ t cars this year was people widely woke up to 200tw tires not affecting there base pax and buying rt660 and re71’s. In years past we never saw quality tires like those wildly used in lower class cars. People are starting to optimize the cars for the classes. Some more then others   either way the issue will be you will never have a fully optimized car with a rockstar driver in every class to base times off of to adjust pax. Hence why it’s never worked. For ota visiting multiple tracks in a season helps them blend cars in a overall as some do better at certain tracks vs others.    this is why I have always wanted to use a classing system that limits everyone equally per class/ car. Pax is way to full of peoples opinions for what a car should run/ should be capable of/ or is a unfair advantage. Black and white rules and a couple classes will Get rid off the ego, bs and crying  

The pax was changed because mod cars were always winning. "Gimli was a unicorn. A very unique one of a kind track that gave an unfair advantage to high horsepower/mod cars", is what we were all told.  Well the data above shows the old pax with last year's champions running 1:01s, which would have put them all in contention with all of the mod cars.  So my question still remains, did the pax need to be changed, or did the drivers need more seat time to be competitive?   I don't even need an answer because the proof is in the data above.  This is literally not getting any of us anywhere. So what's the point in arguing. Let's just scrap all of the pax BS and anything that's made up by any of us and go to something that's universally accepted.  Whether thats SCCA, Global Time Attack or Gridlife and have class champions if needed.  

I don't see the previous dirrectors listed on that sheet. So i am still misunderstanding on how they changed the rules to benefit themselves.  When we set up the new rules it had no effect to where we went in the standings. I want to squash this missinformation right now that the rules were only changed to benefit the previous dirrectors. We were mid field with the old pax system and remained midfield with the new pax system. So throwing out "they only changed the to benefit themselves" is a complete myth to dirrect away why we seen the need to modify the classing.

The benefit was so mod cars wouldnt win anymore. And as for the data, the sheet is posted right above as to how last years championship would have looked on the old pax system. We were told the old pax system was no good because lower classing cars didn't stand a chance. That sheet above proves very different.   As mentioned in my post, I'm literally in favor of any rule book that is widely accepted as standard. Not something that's made specifically for Gimli. 

Can you provide examples how the folks in ta benefitted by the rule change? I don't recall seeing the dirrector moving up in standings any?    I'm all ears to all opinions but would like to see some factual backing behind claims.

I prefer anything other than what we currently have. Look at that sheet above that Brian posted as to how the standings would have been with the old pax system. Notice the leaders were running like 1:01 converted? How interesting that is that I used to run on average 1:01's with a few breakouts under that. My breakouts below a 1:01 usually involved sticker rubber and great conditions. Practically all the other mod cars would also run 1:01 to 1:03's with the exception of Russ being just below the minute mark.  The new pax system has the leaders running like 57s and 58s converted which completely screwed all the mod cars.  I stated from the beginning, the rest of the drivers just needed to improve their skills, which is clearly what has happened.  I haven't set a PB in like two years, almost everyone was setting new PBs every weekend.   Imagine playing golf six times a year while the club pro plays weekly and has been doing so for years. The club pro studies golf, lives, eats and breathes golf. Everytime you play, you lose. Do you get mad at the club pro and change the rules to benefit you, or do you play more golf?  The folks in TA changed the rules to benefit themselves, then told the club pro he's a sore loser, a complainer, an idiot, and he's just mad that he can't win anymore.   Once again, I prefer literally anything other than what we have. 

Good idea. The document was read only for me.    Gridlife -ClubTR (or if that’s not an option Street Mod I’ll be a Rock in a gun fight) SCCA -Max 4  Ian’s classing - Limited (Enthusiast with some minor changes (wheel/tire size).   

Lots of good suggestions in this thread already.   It seems like most ideas are trending towards creating 3 or 4 competition groups. 1) OTA classes  (T, GT, SGT, MOD) 2) Gridlife classes (Street, StreetGT, StreetMod, Unlimited) 3) SCCA classes (Sport, Tuner, Max, Unlimited) 4) Ian's rules (Enthusiast, Limited, Unlimited)   I thought it would be interesting to see where the 50 time attack entrants from 2022 would fall in each system.  Just to see what the groups might look like, which cars potentially get screwed, and how things would balance out overall between groups.   I started a list, but quickly realized that I don't know what mods most of the cars have, so I didn't get very far!   If anybody feels this would be useful, feel free to populate the list with what you know.   I'm sure there are other driver/cars that didn't compete in 2022 that could be added as well. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UtT8ykimsz-CqPbWff7FhG0IOhb_ISI4SIqmb6VqFLg/edit?usp=sharing  

"I attached the results from day one of the last event of the year everyone has mentioned. It was awesome. But what I want to point out is that it wasn’t really a great battle because of pax. It was a battle between 2 cars in the same class. It was exciting because it was a battle of raw time essentially. I remember being in the pits watching the times roll in live and everyone watching if Roland would pull the upset off.  I really feel we could have that excitement again but across multiple classes with classing based on raw times. Imagine the excitement of close battles across multiple classes could produce vs one battle for the top that pax can deliver."   One can argue that the ongoing battle between me and Dason was not despite the PAX system, but because of the PAX system. My car was a GT4 car, and I used the tire rules to get into T1, therefore getting an advantage in the PAX system. There is a possibility that I would have had faster times, but less points if I had run 200 UTGQ tires. I just maximized the PAX system, therefore in my mind the PAX system did help making it an interesting season because it allowed me to race Dason in the same class.   Ultimately, I don't need to have an overall winner of the Time Attack championship.  There are many motorsport disciplines that acknowledge individual classes as equal. For example, in Motocross an 80cc rider can be national champion, while a different rider is 250cc champion, and a third person is 450cc champion - all three of them equally respected and honoured, without the person with the fastest (usually 450cc) bike getting any higher accolades than the fastest one in a slower class.  However, there are other disciplines that do not separate the individual classes but have some kind of handicap factor for the faster vehicles, enabling a direct comparison between slower classes and faster classes - our PAX system is not unusual in the motorsport world, either.  I am good with either way. However, removing the PAX system alone does not solve the problem with aligning our system with what is being used in the West. I also point out again: the fewer classes we create, the more money needs to be spent to be competitive. I cannot see how that entices new drivers to join Time Attack. Let's not make Time Attack the playground of a few people by excluding any new participants who have to envision a mountain of modifications just to try to keep up! There is one more thing (Andrea, I might just misunderstand you): Any championship and any points race is being won by people who show up to compete. We all know how much harder it is for our members from far away to participate at GMP, but there has to be a meaningful number of events counting towards the end result. Any competitor who only attends 50% of the races should not have a chance in the championship against the one who shows up faithfully every time. 

It has been brought up time and time again certain modifications don’t make sense for how many points are brought up against you in the pax system. Pax in my opinion is not true to time attack but focuses more on a time trial event trying to make a driver the focus without taking their car into account. However, the factors against each car can be unique and the challenge is that you will never get a level playing field when the cars are constantly changing with technology, different trims and new vehicles. I like the idea of getting rid of this overall championship and going to a classing system where the focus is on track records vs one overall winner. This would actually allow more “winners” per say with a few concise classes and the ability to focus more on machine and driver vs just driver. Cars grouped together in a fashion that you know where they stand in their own category. Pax was getting to a very stiff pointy end of not being fun for those who wanted to showcase the ability to drive and build a car that they 1. Enjoyed driving and 2. Looked cool. It penalized each modification wether it was cosmetic or not because it had to account for modifications which would either be an advantage in one case vs a disadvantage in another. I think the overall competitiveness and one overall winner takes away from people feeling like they would have a shot at even competing when they also need to show up to quite a few events to even be considered in the points. It’s been a few hard years for people to make it out to the track as things get more expensive. We need to consider a bit of this in the equation when someone can make 4 track weekends and another person can make maybe 2 days but want to see where they and their car fall into the standings.  I am also all for a rookie league. There is so much you learn the first year or two and coming out with a car you didn’t think you would be racing has its clear disadvantages and often times immediately bodes that either you sacrifice track time to modify your car in a more helpful way or deal with being in a spot where you turn laps for fun but want the aspect of a competition to see where you stand.