2023 Pax / Classing Discussion

[Mat]

“As a result of this discussion and unofficial poll results, we have concluded that all organizations, including SCCA, OTA, GridLife and others come with pros and cons in their respective classing structure. The one organization, in our opinion, that comes closest to meeting our goals and provides the best fit for our Club is the OTA ruleset.

We recognize the perceived issues with using PAX modifiers and, as such, will not be using the PAX modifiers…” 

We will be discussing this proposal at the meeting on Thursday. I look forward to elaborating on why we decided that the “merged classing” OTA ruleset was the best fit for TA at GMP.
 

Special thanks to @donrolandofurioso @Ianfromduff @Weebly for their time and effort on this.

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Mat

[FFAttack]

Good call tonight and glad to see a solid direction that should help grow the sport at GMP.  Thank you very much to everyone involved in all the behind the scenes work. 
 

Already looking at what direction to take the car in 2023.

 

Jeremy

[Mat]

So it’s been one week since our TA meeting. 
 

I’d like to hear some feedback and get a sentiment check after everyone has had some time to digest the info. 

[David Klassen]

It would be helpful if you were to post a copy of the TA document that was discussed. 

[Tysawch]

[FFAttack]

My main issue is sorting out the classing and PIPs. I thought I had a grip on it but now I’m not sure. Since nothing is changing on the car this season I have time to figure it out for 2024. 

[Mat]

2 hours ago, David Klassen said:

It would be helpful if you were to post a copy of the TA document that was discussed. 

INTRODUCTION

The WSCC Time Attack Classing/PAX system is under review and has been subject to open discussion on the Forum. As a result of this discussion and unofficial poll results, we have concluded that all organizations, including SCCA, OTA, GridLife and others come with pros and cons in their respective classing structure. The one organization, in our opinion, that comes closest to meeting our goals and provides the best fit for our Club is the OTA ruleset.

We recognize the perceived issues with using PAX modifiers and, as such, will not be using the PAX modifiers for any classes other than Rookie.

 

CLASSING

The following six classes are being proposed for the 2023 season:

1. Extreme

2. Modified (Mod)

3. Super Grand Touring (SGT)

4. Grand Touring (GT)

5. Touring

6. Rookie

 

EXTREME

This class is intended for those that want to build a “track beast” and challenge the fastest lap record put down at GMP (presently 58.962).

All safety requirements per governing body regulations must be met, otherwise there are no restrictions to modifications.

 

MODIFIED (MOD)

This class combines the existing OTA sub-classes of Open Mod, Mod 1, Mod 2, and Mod 3 into a single class.

The Performance Index Points (PIP) ranges from 95.0 to 129.9points.

 

SUPER GRAND TOURING (SGT)

This class combines the existing OTA sub-classes of SGT1, SGT2, and SGT3 into a single class.

The Performance Index Points (PIP) ranges from 80.0 to 94.9 points.

 

GRAND TOURING (GT)

This class combines the existing OTA sub-classes of GT1, GT2, GT3, and GT4 into a single class.

The Performance Index Points (PIP) ranges from 60.0 to 79.9points.

 

TOURING

This class combines the existing OTA sub-classes of T1, T2, and T3 into a single class.

The Performance Index Points (PIP) ranges from 40.0 to 59.9points.

 

ROOKIE

This class has been established to encourage participation from recent graduates of the Competition Licensing School. The emphasis is being placed on driver skills improvement. The following guidelines apply:

• A rookie is defined as a participant who has entered 10 or less events. A participant may retain rookie status over two or more years until they have participated in 10 events.

NOTE: Participation in a single event is defined as having completed one or more laps in a single session and is not dependent on having completed all scheduled sessions forthat day.

• In order to compete in the Rookie Championship, the participant will be required to class their car in accordance with the Ontario Time Attack (OTA) classification system.

• A PAX factor will be applied to each class/sub-class to neutralize/handicap any performance advantage of a specific car. This will modify the raw lap time with an adjusted lap time that will isolate the driver as the basis on which to judge performance.

 

CLASSING PROCESS

As with our existing classing system, it will be necessary to class your car using the OTA classing system. This system usesa base starting point for a stock vehicle and then addsPerformance Index Points (PIP’s) for any modifications to arrive at a final number that will determine your class. WSCC class break points are as follows:

EXTREME – no requirement to submit a classing schedule but would typically be a vehicle with 130 or more performance index points.

MODIFIED (MOD) – 95.0 to 129.9 points

SUPER GRAND TOURING (SGT) - 80.0 to 94.9 points

GRAND TOURING (GT) - 60.0 to 79.9 points

TOURING - 40.0 to 59.9 points

ROOKIE – this class will utilize the full spectrum of classing (14 separate classes ranging from T3 to MOD 1) offered by OTA and then use the PAX modifier for that specific class as follows:

CLASS	PAX FACTOR
MOD 1	1.052
MOD 2	1.012
MOD3	1.000
SGT1	0.988
SGT2	0.976
SGT3	0.964
GT1	0.952
GT2	0.940
GT3	0.928
GT4	0.916
T1	0.904
T2	0.892
T3	0.880

 

CLASSING STRATEGY

It will be incumbent on the individual to assess the modifications on their car and the resultant class under which it falls. Each class has a range varying from 15 to 30 points, depending on the class and it will be important to position yourself in the upper end of the class to be competitive. Conversely, it may be more economical to de-modify your car so that it moves into the upper range of the lower class.

Let’s use the example of a lightly modified vehicle with a performance index of 63.0 points. This would place the car in the lower range of the GT class (60.0 to 79.9 points) and invariably make it difficult to compete with the cars in the higher range of the GT class. Two choices are apparent. You could throw on a lot more performance modifications, while still remaining within the class limit and become seriouslycompetitive, albeit at a cost. The other choice would be to remove a modification that was worth 3 PIP’s and drop into the upper range of the Touring class and become highly competitive in that class.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Mat

[Mat]

2 hours ago, Tysawch said:

MOD is a problem.

[Rustfree]

Despite the fact that the ACR officially falls into the Mod class, I'm thinking just classing it in "Extreme."

Thus not competing in the Mod class will help.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Rustfree

[Mat]

 

OTA MOD 2 & 3 = WSCC MOD

OTA MOD 1 = EXTREME

 

Thoughts?

Edited December 16, 2022 by Mat

[FFAttack]

2 hours ago, Mat said:

 

OTA MOD 2 & 3 = WSCC MOD

OTA MOD 1 = EXTREME

 

Thoughts?

What is the reason behind it? 
 

Why not just have Extreme as it’s own deal? 

[David Klassen]

Just so you don’t have to look elsewhere:

Ontario Time Attack Car Classing Database

[Tysawch]

2 hours ago, Rustfree said:

Despite the fact that the ACR officially falls into the Mod class, I'm thinking just classing it in "Extreme."

Thus not competing in the Mod class will help.

I say it’s a mod car. This whole extreme class thing feels like making 2 classes out of one with no real split points of what puts you into extreme. Honestly seems odd that if we are going to split a class  to try help out classing it be mod of all things. I could see a argument for wanting more splits between t and gt but splitting mod is just handing out participation trophy’s 

 

2 hours ago, Mat said:

OTA MOD 2 & 3 = WSCC MOD

OTA MOD 1 = WSCC HEAVY MOD

and the viper is still mod 3. We can’t make more classes because the rest of mod be lacking. 

[A_Revs]

5 hours ago, Mat said:

MOD is a problem.

Can you expand your thoughts on this point?

I’m curious how mod is an issue.
We shouldn’t be putting onus on people to go into higher classes for competition sake when they aren’t maxed out of a class already. 

[Rustfree]

2 hours ago, Tysawch said:

I say it’s a mod car. This whole extreme class thing feels like making 2 classes out of one with no real split points of what puts you into extreme. Honestly seems odd that if we are going to split a class  to try help out classing it be mod of all things. I could see a argument for wanting more splits between t and gt but splitting mod is just handing out participation trophy’s 

 

and the viper is still mod 3. We can’t make more classes because the rest of mod be lacking. 

I agree.  No need to split the Mod class.  

The way I was thinking this worked is that "Extreme" is considered a "challenge class."  No trophies/positions are awarded unless a new record is set.  If that's me, managing to find a new PB ....then great.  If it's someone else breaking the "production car track record" or "overall track record for any door-slammer" then they take it.  If the records are not re-set, then no trophy or position is awarded.  Purely Challenge.  Essentially I would be extracted from the Mod class.  Just competing against myself, or anyone else who establishes a new record. 

[mcorrie]

Just want to say that I am grateful for the efforts that have been put into TA in the past few years and we see our discipline grow because of it. this is grassroots motorsports and TA is now the frontlines and the club has responded in the best way possible and I am quite happy to see this effort. The amount of discussion in this thread alone is indicative of the strong future in front of us.
 
What ever rules that are in place next season, I will comply - as I am here for the fun of developing the car and having fun watching new drivers develop and being a part of that. If for some reason the moons align and my car becomes competitive with new rules, super - all the better.
I will say that I have read it and I like the SCCA rule set. 

for reference, it’s my opinion that the classing systems are skewed by the type of track. New or old. New tracks are designed without high speed corners such as we have with T1 -T2 at Gimli. Newer tracks do not have these features as they are safety risks.  With Gimli being a shorter track, the results are amplified. The new tracks will have a different index factor for this reason.  As such, it will be hard to adapt a factor to work for our track, but again, I applaud the efforts taken to equal the playing field. 

there is no perfect solution here, the fact that we as a club put in the effort to make it as equal as possible is exactly what I like seeing and I will support those efforts. 
 

matt

 

[donrolandofurioso]

11 hours ago, FFAttack said:

My main issue is sorting out the classing and PIPs. I thought I had a grip on it but now I’m not sure. Since nothing is changing on the car this season I have time to figure it out for 2024. 

Anyone needing a hand to try to figure out their PIP, please feel free to contact me. It does seem overwhelming, but getting the correct PIP is pretty easy if the car owner is honest and discloses all the modifications made.

[DMSTIMING]

Good discussion here, thought I would share some perspective from Alberta as I've read a few misconceptions throughout the discussion as to what is going on out here.

First off, Time Attack is really small here, maybe ~10 - 15 people that actually compete in it. We might get 7 participants per event. The events are just an extra run group added onto a Lapping day event.

One group did try a few times to run an actual time Attack event, but only ~7 people showed up for it. 

Nobody here really has a car built to any one of the major Time attack rule sets. 

There are currently 2 groups here that run Time Attacks in Alberta, Speed Freaks and Track Junkies. Both located in Edmonton that run at the two local tracks; Stratotech Raceway & Rad Torque Raceway.

One uses NASA similar classing & pax  system (Power to weight ratio + tire compound + Handling mods) and the other group tried using the OTA non Paxed classes. 

General interest in either of these series in 2022 was low, and far from something that could be considered a successful time attack series.

Changes are being made for 2023 to go to very simple rule set, based on local feedback to get attendance up.

 

[Weebly]

Ever wonder how the rules and classing system work for someone in the MOD class? Over the last four years we've been averaging at least three MOD cars per event. Greatest number of MOD entries at a single event was six. It would be awesome to have that many at every event.  Here’s what OTA rules and car classing database say about the MOD class:

• Open MOD – this class is for non-production vehicles including formula, open-wheel, sports racing, tube frame, non-production drive configuration, or more than one engine. There are no cars in the database because this is for non-production cars. Our supplementary regulations do not allow open wheel cars at this time. Otherwise, I’m not sure if any Club member has a closed wheel car that would fit into this class.
• MOD 1 & 2 – no production cars listed in database at this time. The Lotus 7 is described as a “kit car” and must be registered, have a roll bar, and DOT tires and shall be classified as “MOD”. However, OTA doesn’t say what category of MOD. Otherwise, the car can be put on a dyno and weighed to establish a proper class. Maybe someone out there (Chris?) knows why the Lotus 7 is entered as MOD 1.  You would need 110 or greater PIP's to get into MOD 1. 
• MOD3 – Only 3 cars listed in the database. (Russ with his Viper ACR is in rarefied company with the Ariel Atom and McLaren MP4)
• SGT1 to MOD3 – we have a few SGT1 cars where the base model is less than 95 points, but tires or other mods can easily bump them into MOD 3. Examples are Corvette Z06, Porsche 911 GT3 RS, Viper GTS, Camaro ZL1 1LE etc.

As an aside, if you’re ever thinking of buying another car and want to get the most bang for your buck, you can sort the database by class and/or PIP’s and then cherry-pick the one with the most performance points. Or, conversely, pick one at the bottom of the points range that will allow you to do a lot of mods, while still remaining in the class. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out with our new classing system for 2023. Looking forward to it.

By the way, I’ve attached an Excel version of the OTA database (current as of 2022_12_22) in case you’re more comfortable using Excel to filter & sort. Merry Christmas!

 Brian

 

OTA Database.xlsx

[FFAttack]

26 minutes ago, Weebly said:

Ever wonder how the rules and classing system work for someone in the MOD class? Over the last four years we've been averaging at least three MOD cars per event. Greatest number of MOD entries at a single event was six. It would be awesome to have that many at every event.  Here’s what OTA rules and car classing database say about the MOD class:

• Open MOD – this class is for non-production vehicles including formula, open-wheel, sports racing, tube frame, non-production drive configuration, or more than one engine. There are no cars in the database because this is for non-production cars. Our supplementary regulations do not allow open wheel cars at this time. Otherwise, I’m not sure if any Club member has a closed wheel car that would fit into this class.
• MOD 1 & 2 – no production cars listed in database at this time. The Lotus 7 is described as a “kit car” and must be registered, have a roll bar, and DOT tires and shall be classified as “MOD”. However, OTA doesn’t say what category of MOD. Otherwise, the car can be put on a dyno and weighed to establish a proper class. Maybe someone out there (Chris?) knows why the Lotus 7 is entered as MOD 1.  You would need 110 or greater PIP's to get into MOD 1. 
• MOD3 – Only 3 cars listed in the database. (Russ with his Viper ACR is in rarefied company with the Ariel Atom and McLaren MP4)
• SGT1 to MOD3 – we have a few SGT1 cars where the base model is less than 95 points, but tires or other mods can easily bump them into MOD 3. Examples are Corvette Z06, Porsche 911 GT3 RS, Viper GTS, Camaro ZL1 1LE etc.

As an aside, if you’re ever thinking of buying another car and want to get the most bang for your buck, you can sort the database by class and/or PIP’s and then cherry-pick the one with the most performance points. Or, conversely, pick one at the bottom of the points range that will allow you to do a lot of mods, while still remaining in the class. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out with our new classing system for 2023. Looking forward to it.

By the way, I’ve attached an Excel version of the OTA database (current as of 2022_12_22) in case you’re more comfortable using Excel to filter & sort. Merry Christmas!

 Brian

 

OTA Database.xlsx 107.15 kB · 2 downloads

So I have spent a bunch of time as of late on the OTA site. I see in your post that you comment about Dyno vs weight and how that will set your class. But I believe even with a Dyno and Weight you still need to go threw and select all your PIPs to get to your class. 
 

For my Civic if I just do pips and Dyno/weight I’m in GT2. Now if I add in the engine swap and stock power of that (that should not really have any effect as my Power to weight) PIPS are all the same I immediately bump to SGT2. 
 

I have probably spent more than 10 hours on there in the last couple weeks trying to make heads or tails of it. I want to maximize what I can do while avoiding being bumped to MOD. 
 

Side note a properly driven GT3rs will be a SGT killer. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by FFAttack

[Rare Snake]

1 hour ago, FFAttack said:

Side note a properly driven GT3rs will be a SGT killer. 

100% agree on this. 

[Tysawch]

2 hours ago, Weebly said:

Ever wonder how the rules and classing system work for someone in the MOD class? Over the last four years we've been averaging at least three MOD cars per event. Greatest number of MOD entries at a single event was six. It would be awesome to have that many at every event.  Here’s what OTA rules and car classing database say about the MOD class:

• Open MOD – this class is for non-production vehicles including formula, open-wheel, sports racing, tube frame, non-production drive configuration, or more than one engine. There are no cars in the database because this is for non-production cars. Our supplementary regulations do not allow open wheel cars at this time. Otherwise, I’m not sure if any Club member has a closed wheel car that would fit into this class.
• MOD 1 & 2 – no production cars listed in database at this time. The Lotus 7 is described as a “kit car” and must be registered, have a roll bar, and DOT tires and shall be classified as “MOD”. However, OTA doesn’t say what category of MOD. Otherwise, the car can be put on a dyno and weighed to establish a proper class. Maybe someone out there (Chris?) knows why the Lotus 7 is entered as MOD 1.  You would need 110 or greater PIP's to get into MOD 1. 
• MOD3 – Only 3 cars listed in the database. (Russ with his Viper ACR is in rarefied company with the Ariel Atom and McLaren MP4)
• SGT1 to MOD3 – we have a few SGT1 cars where the base model is less than 95 points, but tires or other mods can easily bump them into MOD 3. Examples are Corvette Z06, Porsche 911 GT3 RS, Viper GTS, Camaro ZL1 1LE etc.

As an aside, if you’re ever thinking of buying another car and want to get the most bang for your buck, you can sort the database by class and/or PIP’s and then cherry-pick the one with the most performance points. Or, conversely, pick one at the bottom of the points range that will allow you to do a lot of mods, while still remaining in the class. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out with our new classing system for 2023. Looking forward to it.

By the way, I’ve attached an Excel version of the OTA database (current as of 2022_12_22) in case you’re more comfortable using Excel to filter & sort. Merry Christmas!

 Brian

 

OTA Database.xlsx 107.15 kB · 2 downloads

You don’t always want the base model. For example let’s say a 350z. The base trim has a open diff. All trims are the same class but you can put a aftermarket diff in the performance pack cars since they have a factory vlsd and not get any pips vs taking pips with a base model. This happens a lot in the rule book. Wrx vs sti has similar effects. Modding the wrx is pax suicide vs just buying the sti.