2023 Pax / Classing Discussion

[FFAttack]

10 minutes ago, Mat said:

Truth. We’re really good at asking people to come to GMP, we’re not great at returning the favour.

I don’t think that is unique to this group. I just had to ask to better understand. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by FFAttack

[Tysawch]

That’s the problem with our distance from other tracks. It was cheaper $/per track time to go to Colorado then Edmonton. Maybe not anymore with the exchange rate being not so in our favour. But that is something GMP does have over the Alberta tracks. Multi day events. It’s worth the drive when you can make a 3 day race weekend out of it. If the tow bill gets cut up over 3 days it kinda works out cheaper then when we went west for 1 day events. (There is now a way to do 3 track days in a weekend in Edmonton area but it would be a lot of work. Loading up and moving to a different track everyday to hit castrol, strato and strawberry creek. It’s on my list to do but it seems like something I’ll enjoy more after then during lol) 
 

is a tow fund a possibility for time attack? 

 

[Dnfwm]

We would almost be better to try and target folks from North Dakota and Minnesota if possible. They probably wouldn't want to come to an unpaved track though. 

 

Some very fast cars reside in North Dakota. Jeremy Swenson and Shawn Kresbach both reside in Fargo and have crazy fast cars, as well as all the crazy evos are from Minnesota area. 

 

I have been to Alberta before and it is quite a hike to get there. Ran castrol and stratotech and it was a ton of fun. Stratotech is pretty cheap just brutal on tires, castrol is expensive and also brutal on tires lol. 

[FFAttack]

47 minutes ago, Tysawch said:

That’s the problem with our distance from other tracks. It was cheaper $/per track time to go to Colorado then Edmonton. Maybe not anymore with the exchange rate being not so in our favour. But that is something GMP does have over the Alberta tracks. Multi day events. It’s worth the drive when you can make a 3 day race weekend out of it. If the tow bill gets cut up over 3 days it kinda works out cheaper then when we went west for 1 day events. (There is now a way to do 3 track days in a weekend in Edmonton area but it would be a lot of work. Loading up and moving to a different track everyday to hit castrol, strato and strawberry creek. It’s on my list to do but it seems like something I’ll enjoy more after then during lol) 
 

is a tow fund a possibility for time attack? 

 

I’m planing on doing all 3 next summer if I can swing it too in one trip. I also want to go to a few track down south. 
 

A track worth the trip for is Area27 and the Ridge both incredible tracks. 

[Mat]

1 hour ago, Tysawch said:

is a tow fund a possibility for time attack? 

 

The WSCC isn’t in a position for that right now. After fixing our track different story. Let’s be honest, until the work is done we shouldn’t be inviting anyone. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Mat

[Mat]

The more this thread expands the more it seems to me that we need to focus more on the best fit for our membership, and less on assimilation.

[David Klassen]

Regardless of having a PAX system / or not / 4 classes or 15 classes, there's a couple of issues that will remain:

1. People who are strongly competitive will spend money on getting the fastest vehicle they can put in the field, within the scope of the class rules
2. People who are not spending money will not be competitive
3. The whole problem of strongly competitive participants is that there's a winner . . . and the rest are all LOSERS 

I like the idea of dropping the overall championship and having class championships . . . more winners (not that I ever see myself in that rarified circle!!)

I like the idea of adopting a classing system that's widely used and not tailored to GMP. One benefit might be attracting out of province people, but in my mind the main benefit is that it removes any semblance of local bias.

I like the idea of a rookie class. I wouldn't qualify for that anymore, but it might attract rookies to the events. I'm going to be attending Fridays for giving my friends rides around the track and helping any rookies that might ask for help.  I like the idea of mixing up Open Lapping and TA / Road Race in the same days. It gives new people exposure to TA & Road Race while having some fun themselves. On weekend this year, I was doing TA, but also gave some newbies a ride around the track . . . I had to ask the stewards permission to do the ride on an Open Lapping session, it's not a usual thing . . . maybe it should be.

I like the idea of promoting and recognizing the accomplishment of setting new personal best times. Anyone can do that, either by improving the vehicle and/or learning better techniques / driving practices. I can celebrate that for myself and those around me. That's fun for me!

What ever the decision on Classing/PAX is, it's going to be another great year, having fun, learning things, going faster!

[Mat]

Thanks David

One thing is for sure. Our weekend schedule will always host 60 minutes of open track. I’ve already committed us to that! 

We’ve sent in our request to GMP and I expect we will have at least one open track weekend. I’ll be twisting @donrolandofurioso’s arm to hold a second licensing school for individuals who are committed to compete in 2023. 
 

 

 

[funkejay]

12 hours ago, Tysawch said:

That’s the problem with our distance from other tracks. It was cheaper $/per track time to go to Colorado then Edmonton. Maybe not anymore with the exchange rate being not so in our favour. But that is something GMP does have over the Alberta tracks. Multi day events. It’s worth the drive when you can make a 3 day race weekend out of it. If the tow bill gets cut up over 3 days it kinda works out cheaper then when we went west for 1 day events. (There is now a way to do 3 track days in a weekend in Edmonton area but it would be a lot of work. Loading up and moving to a different track everyday to hit castrol, strato and strawberry creek. It’s on my list to do but it seems like something I’ll enjoy more after then during lol) 
 

is a tow fund a possibility for time attack? 

 

Part of the 'problem' with the WSCC (maybe I should call it a challenge?) is we are so committed to making racing affordable, we actually don't generate sufficient revenue to properly finance our own operations, nevermind creating incentives to attract out of Province competitors. 

This is not an insurmountable issue, but the current economics don't make it possible. 

[Tysawch]

1 hour ago, funkejay said:

Part of the 'problem' with the WSCC (maybe I should call it a challenge?) is we are so committed to making racing affordable, we actually don't generate sufficient revenue to properly finance our own operations, nevermind creating incentives to attract out of Province competitors. 

This is not an insurmountable issue, but the current economics don't make it possible. 

I think if we can get the right rule set in place and get some records going it will feed itself. Good competition and firm records will pull people from further distances.  

[beppca]

Great discussion, thank you Mat for facilitating this conversation and committing to moving TA forward this year!

I don’t have experience with the other classing systems so I’m glad other members do.

Here are my thoughts:

1.       I agree with many of you that we don’t need an overall champion and that the best in each class should be recognized. This year and in past years, the funnest weekends were when I raced against similar cars in my class.

2.       Our current PAX system penalizes modifications heavily – so it almost always makes sense to run stock but that is not appealing to most car people. Simple tweaks and upgrades can make most cars much more enjoyable on the track but likely not as competitive - So I like the idea of having classes that allow both stock cars and encourage modifications – then people that want, can build their dream race cars and be competitive.

3.       Related (to above), if you’re a rookie and your car is already modified (most change something) then you’re going to have an uphill battle right out of the gate and may lose interest in competing - So I like to idea of a Novice/Rookie Class to hook new racers.

4.       We need to convert more Race School students into TA registrants. The classes of 2020 and 2021 did not create many TA racers and the 2022 class had only a couple come out this year so I don’t have high hopes for their attendance next year. A second or abbreviated school might help.

5.       Although I don’t know what the solution is - Ideally the TA system we go with will attract new local members to the track now, and will be more compatible or more easily compatible with other systems to attack racers from other jurisdictions the future.

Thanks. Looking forward to next season!

Brad

[Mat]

2 hours ago, beppca said:

Great discussion, thank you Mat for facilitating this conversation and committing to moving TA forward this year!

I don’t have experience with the other classing systems so I’m glad other members do.

Here are my thoughts:

1.       I agree with many of you that we don’t need an overall champion and that the best in each class should be recognized. This year and in past years, the funnest weekends were when I raced against similar cars in my class.

2.       Our current PAX system penalizes modifications heavily – so it almost always makes sense to run stock but that is not appealing to most car people. Simple tweaks and upgrades can make most cars much more enjoyable on the track but likely not as competitive - So I like the idea of having classes that allow both stock cars and encourage modifications – then people that want, can build their dream race cars and be competitive.

3.       Related (to above), if you’re a rookie and your car is already modified (most change something) then you’re going to have an uphill battle right out of the gate and may lose interest in competing - So I like to idea of a Novice/Rookie Class to hook new racers.

4.       We need to convert more Race School students into TA registrants. The classes of 2020 and 2021 did not create many TA racers and the 2022 class had only a couple come out this year so I don’t have high hopes for their attendance next year. A second or abbreviated school might help.

5.       Although I don’t know what the solution is - Ideally the TA system we go with will attract new local members to the track now, and will be more compatible or more easily compatible with other systems to attack racers from other jurisdictions the future.

Thanks. Looking forward to next season!

Brad

5/5 - 100% 

 

Thanks Brad

[FFAttack]

So was there a dance off? Video? 
 

 

[Miguel]

Hello all! Ill start by saying that I've only attended one weekend of TA but many of hot lapping and AutoX in the past.

Being able to build a car know where it classes locally and anywhere else if valuable. I think that a spec series and SCCA style rules are good ideas. When I first got into the WSCC I kinda lost my mind reading rule books trying to figure out how to build a car to have fun today and make dreams come true of playing in the states/competing with their AutoX circuits. Sticking with stock has its advantages, but I and I am sure have lofty dreams of building/owning/running a caged car to push things as far as possible safety. 

1)
I see the conflict around shifting PAX factors, and I noticed the same. The classifications didn't quite make sense to me. I noticed that my 3100 pound 200hp/200 TQ, 3.0L E46 320i, which had every bolt on performance mod, put me in GT1 a few years prior. And then my stock 4.0L 400hp/ 290 ft/lbs M3 of 3600 pounds also landed in GT1. I did not do the math on raw and converted times, and it some ways it seems fun to have these cars slotted in. But my real adversaries in the E46 were FRS/BRZs I could walk(  ) if I didn't screw up, and thus were closely matched.

Which leads me to point 2) A spec series or a spec-ISH series could be fun and competitive. If the right kind of polling and surveying was done we could figure out who in OUR CLUB wants to show up and is showing up and what cars they bring!! and we could cluster them together. Some spec series have different makes and models in the same categories. 

There are BMW challenge and Honda challenge races in the states. Some of which follow grid life rules. But their classing system is beyond me, but they seem to accurately slot cars of different levels of stockiness, aero and or power upgrades really well together. We don't need to have manufacture series, but maybe spec or series classifications would make sense for what our car community needs short term? Before inviting others to play

3) Thirdly, one thing that confused me about the desire to have grid life or other imported rule books was the non standardize use of safety equipment and the vague classing. I was a big nay sayer then because when you look at who turns up to those events internationally and what the build philosophy/ goals are, it is big power, big aero high speed cornering. You don't see light weight NA builds or mechanical only tire grip/formula cars at them.

Also some racing series have cars with Half cages, or bolt in roll bars (monkey bars) competing against cars with FIA euro cages or hybrid cage designs with a lot of structure but without door cross bars for street-ability. 

4) Lastly coming back to PAX and getting more people to events. I had a friend excited to build some weird vintage European car, and twin charge it, and basically retro high boost high down force car. But I explained the PAX system and classing and how it would be hard to be competitive, and it turned him right off. And that was a bummer.

I think there is value in having an unlimited class, or a novice class. Or even a spectator class. Pikes Peak has a fun classing structure, including a time attack for their unique course challenges where crazy tubular chases builds or extreme high boost high aero builds are needed.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Miguel

[Mat]

6 minutes ago, Miguel said:

I think there is value in having an unlimited class, or a novice class. Or even a spectator class. Pikes Peak has a fun classing structure, including a time attack for their unique course challenges where crazy tubular chases builds or extreme high boost high aero builds are needed.

Nice post Mig

 

I can confirm there will be a Rookie program as well as an EXTREME (Unlimited/Open) class.

[Mat]

Let’s try and reel this in a bit.

 

Please vote!

 

PAX vs. Class Champ

Preferred Rulebook

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Mat

[Tysawch]

Something just to note. The Global time attack/ super lap and Gridlife are widely overlapping of each other. Couple small key differences on the classes but largely you can build a car for one and likely attend either of there events in the same class.
 

WTAC is the summit of time attack. It’s the highest level the craziest cars and professional drivers in the top class. Because its focused so primarily on the top pointy end of the sport there really isn’t much in way of a entry level class. There “ clubsport” class cars are honestly likely faster then anything that’s got a licence plate at gmp. 
 

a step back from the pure insanity on wtac in my eyes would be GTA/SLB. This is the closest rule set to wtac in North America. Although there is the benefits of some more entry level classes that really help inclusion of the everyday enthusiasts. They still carry over spec tires. I still see lots of gaps at the bottom end of there rule sets that would leave many cars ultimately non competitive even in the lowest class. 
 

Gridlife rules set. The top classes essentially overlap gta (unlimited/track mod / streetmod) without a spec tire. The lower classes / near stock car classes is what make them interesting vs the others.  Street gt is essentially the fast modern v8 turbo 6cyl class that have limited modifications. This class would be big at gmp. The other class is club tr. 2.5l n/a or smaller or 1.6l turbo and smaller class with some aero modifications aloud. Motor swaps are also fair play if they meet the rules. I personally love this class as it opens people up to building fast and cost effective cars. It is the missing link I see in every other rule set. 
 

SCCA is to many classes to cover quickly. With lots of technical information needed for the modification end. My worry would be not having enough cars to fill classes. Might become a participation trophy rule set for our car count and just as much complexity as we currently have explaining rules to new participants. 
 

OTA- raw time classes. Could work pretty good. We use the classing already so I won’t go in depth on it. The big draw back I see with the OTA (and scca) rule sets is the absolute lack of competition you have to accept if you want to modify your car in a logical way to what actually nets a faster lap time for your car. Vs what the rule book lets you do fairly penalty free. 
 

witch ever rule set we go with I would say we don’t stray to far from it to the point it would be considered a custom rule set. The only thing I would say should be changed to some of the rules sets would be the removal of any spec tire in a class. Spec tires are great in a competition side but they can also make the sport a lot more expensive. I think keeping it open for people to shop around for a better price on there consumables is something I wouldn’t want to see taken away. It wouldn’t limit people from coming to race with us and at max would mean a change of tires if anyone from gmp wanted to race another track with that rule set 

This is just my view on kinda a overall of the rule sets and my takes on what works and doesn’t work with them. I really like gridlife as a overall of competition and accessibility of the sport 

[FFAttack]

1 hour ago, Tysawch said:

Gridlife rules set. The top classes essentially overlap gta (unlimited/track mod / streetmod) without a spec tire. The lower classes / near stock car classes is what make them interesting vs the others.  Street gt is essentially the fast modern v8 turbo 6cyl class that have limited modifications. This class would be big at gmp. The other class is club tr. 2.5l n/a or smaller or 1.6l turbo and smaller class with some aero modifications aloud. Motor swaps are also fair play if they meet the rules. I personally love this class as it opens people up to building fast and cost effective cars. It is the missing link I see in every other rule set. 

I think having seen what shows up for TA at GMP these classes best cover the majority of competitors. The other GridLife classes would easily hold the outlying entrants. ClubTR could be a big class hosing most the 4cyl engine swaps out there, kswap Miatas, FRS, Hondas etc. 

I agree dropping the spec tire thing locally is a good idea and just stick to the TW ratings. 
 

I would be stoked to make my car a ClubTR class car. 
 

EDIT: Gridlife is releasing a new/updated rule book in a few weeks so should keep an eye on that too. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by FFAttack

[David Klassen]

I’ve looked at Gridlife classing and it’s fairly clear that my 350Z would be in “Street”. 
 

But we have a pretty simple TA competition schedule currently . . . but Gridlife!?!? Oooo boy, that would have a learning curve!

[rocknrollron]

I just read the GridLife rules. First read only of the classification portion, so I could be making some mistakes. I generally like the easy to fit classes and the goal of making things inclusive. I looked at a handful of group A T/A cars that regularly run (sorry in advance, if I didn’t look at yours). After doing this I quickly realized that certain cars will clearly rank highest without there even being a close 2nd. For this reason, I might be more inclined to choose a system that more strongly considers power to weight amongst other things.

 

NA Mustangs, NA Camaros, NA Corvettes - Street GT

Turbo 6s like BMW and Supra, etc - Street GT

Kaycee’s yellow Corvette - Street Mod because I believe it has a cam upgrade (other mods may also put him in Street Mod) - My point here is that I suspect a car similar, but that still qualifies for Street GT, would likely be setting the time to beat.

ZL1-1LE - Street Mod

GT3-RS because MSRP is greater than $115k - Street Mod

ViperACR - same as GT3-RS - Street Mod (Russ will likely be setting the time to beat in this class) 

 

Darin and I run engines swaps (mine 4cyl swapped to 8 and Darin rotary swapped to 8). So, we are both thrown into Track Modern.

944-LS Swap because it jumped from 4cyl to 8 (greater than 2) - Track Modern

RX8-LS Swap because it jumped from rotary to 8 - Track Modern

*I, myself, am not concerned by this - we are only 2 cars and they are highly modified and therefore hard to fit them fairly in any system.

 

Lotus Super 7 - Sorry, I do not know enough about it to know for sure. 4cyl turbo but I don’t know what it weighs or if it is even considered to be closed wheel. It maybe classed as Super Unlimited.

 

Although I did not look at the other classes,  the Street class will be very large - I would not be surprised that certain cars will consistently run up front in each class. Driving skill can make up for a lot but it might not be enough in some instances. For relatively novice drivers (myself included), GridLife would generally be fine. I don’t think it is the best system for experienced competitive drivers. But we all know that spec classes (or even carts) are great for that and perhaps anyone looking for this might find it in with the right group of cars in any one of the GridLife classes (maybe Club TR or even Sundae Cup). You may just need a different car than you have today.

 

After all this - the “spirit of competition“ could drop cars down or move cars up depending on their competitiveness. Perhaps if someone is running away with a class could be graduated into a faster group and those at the bottom could be moved down.

 

Someone else asked - what is the goal of our organization and for T/A. Best that I understand, it would be very hard to win AutoX without being one of the top drivers. We have OpenLapping/HPDE for people to experience driving fast in a safe environment. Is T/A the next progressive step towards competition and Road Race is the final step if you want to enter more of a driver’s competition?

Are we big enough and is there interest in having both GridLife as well as a 2nd system for closer head-to-head driver competitions in dissimilar street cars?

[Tysawch]

8 minutes ago, rocknrollron said:

I just read the GridLife rules. First read only of the classification portion, so I could be making some mistakes. I generally like the easy to fit classes and the goal of making things inclusive. I looked at a handful of group A T/A cars that regularly run (sorry in advance, if I didn’t look at yours). After doing this I quickly realized that certain cars will clearly rank highest without there even being a close 2nd. For this reason, I might be more inclined to choose a system that more strongly considers power to weight amongst other things.

 

NA Mustangs, NA Camaros, NA Corvettes - Street GT

Turbo 6s like BMW and Supra, etc - Street GT

Kaycee’s yellow Corvette - Street Mod because I believe it has a cam upgrade (other mods may also put him in Street Mod) - My point here is that I suspect a car similar, but that still qualifies for Street GT, would likely be setting the time to beat.

ZL1-1LE - Street Mod

GT3-RS because MSRP is greater than $115k - Street Mod

ViperACR - same as GT3-RS - Street Mod (Russ will likely be setting the time to beat in this class) 

 

Darin and I run engines swaps (mine 4cyl swapped to 8 and Darin rotary swapped to 8). So, we are both thrown into Track Modern.

944-LS Swap because it jumped from 4cyl to 8 (greater than 2) - Track Modern

RX8-LS Swap because it jumped from rotary to 8 - Track Modern

*I, myself, am not concerned by this - we are only 2 cars and they are highly modified and therefore hard to fit them fairly in any system.

 

Lotus Super 7 - Sorry, I do not know enough about it to know for sure. 4cyl turbo but I don’t know what it weighs or if it is even considered to be closed wheel. It maybe classed as Super Unlimited.

 

Although I did not look at the other classes,  the Street class will be very large - I would not be surprised that certain cars will consistently run up front in each class. Driving skill can make up for a lot but it might not be enough in some instances. For relatively novice drivers (myself included), GridLife would generally be fine. I don’t think it is the best system for experienced competitive drivers. But we all know that spec classes (or even carts) are great for that and perhaps anyone looking for this might find it in with the right group of cars in any one of the GridLife classes (maybe Club TR or even Sundae Cup). You may just need a different car than you have today.

 

After all this - the “spirit of competition“ could drop cars down or move cars up depending on their competitiveness. Perhaps if someone is running away with a class could be graduated into a faster group and those at the bottom could be moved down.

 

Someone else asked - what is the goal of our organization and for T/A. Best that I understand, it would be very hard to win AutoX without being one of the top drivers. We have OpenLapping/HPDE for people to experience driving fast in a safe environment. Is T/A the next progressive step towards competition and Road Race is the final step if you want to enter more of a driver’s competition?

Are we big enough and is there interest in having both GridLife as well as a 2nd system for closer head-to-head driver competitions in dissimilar 

hey Ron I think you missed the tire width/tw limits for the street mod class. Street mod limits to 295 width 200tw for fwd and rwd, 255 200tw for awd cars. 

the zl1’s would end up in track modern same with the gt3-rs and acr. 
 

kaycee’s vette is actually the only one that as it ran would end up in unlimited, and that is purely due to running slicks. His car on a 60tw or higher would fit into track modern also

[FFAttack]

GridLife released there rules updates  and most of it is for GLTC with some minor clarifications for other classes. 
 

I think if GridLife is the way we go it needs to be all the classes not just a selection of them. As Gridlife has seen certain classes will attract people that may not have thought about time attack before in there car before(Sunday cup). 

[Mat]

2 hours ago, rocknrollron said:

Are we big enough and is there interest in having both GridLife as well as a 2nd system for closer head-to-head driver competitions in dissimilar street cars?

Thanks for your post @rocknrollron

For 2023 we’re looking at one division only, with a subdivision for Novice.

[rocknrollron]

2 hours ago, Tysawch said:

hey Ron I think you missed the tire width/tw limits for the street mod class. Street mod limits to 295 width 200tw for fwd and rwd, 255 200tw for awd cars. 

the zl1’s would end up in track modern same with the gt3-rs and acr. 
 

Thanks Tyler. I did miss that and that makes a large 'track modern' group. It doesn't change my argument very much that most of the cars will have their work cut out trying to catch Russ in the ViperACR. Not really much different than the group all opting to run raw times. Not that I have any problem with this.

 

[Weebly]

On 11/29/2022 at 7:37 PM, FFAttack said:

GridLife released there rules updates  and most of it is for GLTC with some minor clarifications for other classes. 
 

I think if GridLife is the way we go it needs to be all the classes not just a selection of them. As Gridlife has seen certain classes will attract people that may not have thought about time attack before in there car before(Sunday cup). 

Wouldn't you know it - no sooner do I read through every page of the 2022 rules, they release the 2023 rules.  Oh well, at least the changes are shown in red text, so that makes it easy.

GRIDLIFE 2023 TRACKBATTLE RULES (squarespace.com)

[Mat]

As the poll comes to a close it looks like were narrowing it down to

 

1. GridLife 
2. OTA Raw
3. SCCA

 

If there's an appetite to look beyond the three listed above, please share your thoughts here as we are only one week away from our classing discussion. 

[donrolandofurioso]

Now I remember again why I didn't vote for Grid Life: in all lower classes the rules are asking for a street-driven car! So, unless I make my car street legal again and license and insure it, I will have to drive against cars that have huge aero, are allowed to do all kinds of modifications to body and engine and run wider tires. And yes, my car is actually street legal, but I don't like the idea of spending an extra $2000 per year in insurance on a car that only runs on a racetrack, where the insurance is not valid.

I have no problem building a car to the requirements of a class, but being forced to put a plate on it, or running against highly modified cars just because I don't.... that is not something I can wrap my head around!

Btw...I am not the only one who will face this dilemma if we adopt Grid Life rules - I think most of the affected drivers just haven't noticed that. It will render quite a few current cars useless, or force major expenses on the car owners.

Edited December 2, 2022 by donrolandofurioso

[FFAttack]

1 hour ago, donrolandofurioso said:

Now I remember again why I didn't vote for Grid Life: in all lower classes the rules are asking for a street-driven car! So, unless I make my car street legal again and license and insure it, I will have to drive against cars that have huge aero, are allowed to do all kinds of modifications to body and engine and run wider tires. And yes, my car is actually street legal, but I don't like the idea of spending an extra $2000 per year in insurance on a car that only runs on a racetrack, where the insurance is not valid.

I have no problem building a car to the requirements of a class, but being forced to put a plate on it, or running against highly modified cars just because I don't.... that is not something I can wrap my head around!

Btw...I am not the only one who will face this dilemma if we adopt Grid Life rules - I think most of the affected drivers just haven't noticed that. It will render quite a few current cars useless, or force major expenses on the car owners.

Hmm that’s a good point. My car although titled in BC and able to get insurance will not pass a MPI so I cannot get insurance here (nor would I want too). 

Edited December 2, 2022 by donrolandofurioso

[David Klassen]

Gridlife rules may have a basic “catcha-22” here in MB (I think?)

• they strongly encourage 6 point cages for all classes
• lower classes are to be “daily drive-able“
• I’ve heard that MPI won’t insure caged cars (this is where the “I think?” comes in)

[FFAttack]

6 hours ago, David Klassen said:

Gridlife rules may have a basic “catcha-22” here in MB (I think?)

• they strongly encourage 6 point cages for all classes
• lower classes are to be “daily drive-able“
• I’ve heard that MPI won’t insure caged cars (this is where the “I think?” comes in)

Correct, you can’t get a car safetied or registered with a cage ( I tried).