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2023 Pax / Classing Discussion


FFAttack

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I'm somewhat on the other side of the spectrum with a lot of these rule sets. My hope was for something that would be closer to fair for everyone. Although I don't plan on racing it a whole lot, it disturbs me that my Viper, or any modern high HP car with wide tires from factory, automatically gets thrown in the highest class. This may seem fair to most people, but I look at my competition in that class... ACRs, GT3RS and so on. Anyone who really knows those cars, knows I wouldn't stand a chance against them in a GTS. 

The sad part is (I know I sound like a broken record) our last 2 PAX systems were so close, it just needed some more minor tinkering to bring the high end cars back into the actual competition. It was strong on one side, and then it was strong on the other side, you would think there would be a "middle" in there somewhere that would even it out.  We were so close to having everyone on the same page. I don't pretend to know what kind of witchcraft goes into those numbers, but I feel like the people who did, knew what they were doing. The only major downside to that, is that if we stayed with a PAX system, we would still not be on the same page as every other race event "near" us. That's the only reason I would choose Gridlife or SCCA over OTA. 

Short story long, this is a super hard decision for me, and I can't seem to get off the fence.  I apologize for being zero help on this!        :/

 

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2 hours ago, Rare Snake said:

The sad part is (I know I sound like a broken record) our last 2 PAX systems were so close, it just needed some more minor tinkering to bring the high end cars back into the actual competition.

 

Trigger warning!

 

There is a large contingent of members that disagree that it was “So close”. I’m not talking about BIG members, I’m talking a group of people. 
 

I’ll be honest in saying that I am one of those people. Let me be clear that I’m not disputing the changes made, why they were made or discounting any of the championships won. I ALWAYS would rather see a new champion every year. 
 

I can’t get behind the massive swing that we saw after the adjustment. I also don’t believe that any system can accurately adjust the theoretical times from a stock Miata to a ACR Extreme, across multiple circuits and be able to stand behind it and take it as law. Taking it one step further, I can’t get behind a 3rd party group who isn’t privy to all the formulas and data making changes to this system. I’ve seen the methodology behind the changes, I am immensely impressed with the research and effort that was put in to make these changes. You guys are amazing and brilliant.
 

My vision for TA is seeing cars like the GT3RS & the ACR etc. battling it out against vehicles of that type. These cars were purpose built with BILLIONS of engineering dollars making them the “ultimate track beast”. Quite frankly they shouldn’t be allowed to compete against most of the cars that come to GMP. Imagine thinking you could beat Russ with a 2001 Civic SI Coupe.

I don’t want to come off as tone deaf here, I get why PAX makes things interesting, but is it real?

I guess what it comes down to is would you rather show up with a stock BRZ and try and convince people you won a theoretical (Math) championship against the top cars at Gimli or a class where you are staged with a contingent of “similar cars” that run the same lap times.

There are too many awesome cars and great drivers that deserve to battle it out for a trophy at GMP, more winners, better competition. We have too many members who get discouraged and feel like they’ll never get their shot at a title. 
 

I’m not talking about participation trophies here, I’m talking about fair and legitimate class racing.

 

Edited by Mat
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Looking at Gridlife rules again, I am glad people are seeing the grouping of street and streetGT are large but would be dominated by certain models of cars in the context of who shows up to GMP

Street: Winners, Factory Turbo4s (Ecoboost and New civics, maybe a base 911 (991) can squeak in there?) If you can't add power adders to your 3,4,5,6 cylinder why show up?

StreetGT: Winners will be anything with an LS lol. They should have their own category cause frankly the performance is staggering and vets and Camaros are similar MSRPs. Great for ppl who like winning.

Another issue I had with Gridlife was the AWD tire width limit of 255 square which also translates to 8-to maybe 9.5inch (stretched tire)wide rim. Which to me eliminates a lot of Subarus, Mitsubishi, Audis and BMWs from showing up. Most cars come stock wider than 255 and often are staggered too. Surprisingly these extends up into the StreetMod class. Boosted AWD anything easily makes big power in that range.

And a lot of car enthusiasts in Winnipeg rock those cars for winter.

 

Edited by Miguel
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1 hour ago, Mat said:

I guess what it comes down to is would you rather show up with a stock BRZ and try and convince people you won a theoretical (Math) championship against the top cars at Gimli or a class where you are staged with a contingent of “similar cars” that run the same lap times.

This right here. I get trying to have a system that determines the fastest driver, but unless everyone is getting in the same car it will never come close to perfect. So for me I’d rather be staged with ‘similar cars’

To be fair I’ve only done a handful of events in the last few years, and don’t really care about the competition aspect beyond seeing if my scrapyard civic can keep up with much cooler cars. Any mods I’ve done weren’t based on what class I’d end up in, but rather what would make the car more fun, seeing what makes it faster (Or slower!) or what cheap parts I happen to come across.

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1 hour ago, Miguel said:

 

Another issue I had with Gridlife was the AWD tire width limit of 255 square. Which to me eliminates a lot of Subarus, Mitsubishi, Audis and BMWs from showing up. Most cars come stock wider than 255 and often are staggered too.

 

I have hated this rule for a long time but can also say it is fair. There is still a lot of competition from awd cars for podiums (wins) with 255’s. 

 

on the cars requiring to be registered I feel that is similar to the spec tire thing. I get the spirit of the rule wanting to keep cars a little tamer for the class but in reality mpi rules make it very tricky to keep a racecar registered. I know lots of people are buying salvage title cars to race with to keep the cost down. Think this could be another thing we could flex the rule on to keep racing accessible at a lower price point. If the car is fitting the class in all the other aspects we shouldn’t let a piece of paper keep a competitor out 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Joose said:

to be fair I’ve only done a handful of events in the last few years, and don’t really care about the competition aspect beyond seeing if my scrapyard civic can keep up with much cooler cars. 

Yes!

 

There’s many members who just want to come to GMP and challenge themselves to become better drivers. That might be the ultimate challenge and as far as they want to take it. I want everyone to know that there’s a place for drivers with that mindset.
 

I want to make sure however that nobody feels this way BECAUSE of their PAX factors. I believe that once PAX is gone it may wake the beast of competition in some drivers who felt “stuck”.

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Gmp just doesn't have the extreme cars (yet) that other mass time attack programs see. I see two options. 

 

Option one: we pick a rulebook and adopt it. This has the advantage of being globally recognized and allows other cars competing to come co.pete at gimli without classing changes.

 

This has the disadvantage of not being Taylor made to gmp and our current competitor base. We will likely have classes with  huge amount of cars and other classes with little to no cars. Does this then out us back in the situation we are in now?

 

Option 2: we adopt a rulebook and tweak it to our current car classing numbers at gmp. This has the advantage of making a rulebook specific to gmp where we can balance out the cars in each class and our competition levels. 

 

The disadvantage is we are starting something new and it will need to be assessed and tweaked yearly to ensure its working for our competition levels.

 

I'm all for option 2. We don't attract the level of cars that gridlife has so it doesn't make much sense trying to fit our current car base into its classes. If we're looking to attract time attackers from out of province it's just not feasible due to the wcma lisencing requirement that's exclusive to time attack in manitoba. So we need to find a system that works for us and us alone. It's very unlikely out of province people(alberta/bc/usa) will sign up for a HPDE to obtain a time attack lisence only so they can travel to gmp to compete in a t/a event once or twice. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Ianfromduff said:

If we're looking to attract time attackers from out of province it's just not feasible due to the wcma lisencing requirement that's exclusive to time attack in manitoba. So we need to find a system that works for us and us alone. It's very unlikely out of province people(alberta/bc/usa) will sign up for a HPDE to obtain a time attack lisence only so they can travel to gmp to compete in a t/a event once or twice. 

Agreed. 

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1 hour ago, Ianfromduff said:

I'm all for option 2. We don't attract the level of cars that gridlife has so it doesn't make much sense trying to fit our current car base into its classes. If we're looking to attract time attackers from out of province it's just not feasible due to the wcma lisencing requirement that's exclusive to time attack in manitoba. So we need to find a system that works for us and us alone. It's very unlikely out of province people(alberta/bc/usa) will sign up for a HPDE to obtain a time attack lisence only so they can travel to gmp to compete in a t/a event once or twice. 

 

 

I believe more than ever that we need to make this decision with WSCC members racing at GMP being the prime focus. 
 

licensing not withstanding, track condition, fuel costs etc are also working against us.

 

Ian I’d really like to hear your opinion on OTA Raw.

Edited by Mat
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I’d like to clarify something.

 

I’m all for merging classes as I theorized earlier with the T1,2,3 example.

 

I’m highly reluctant to modify any rule book beyond that example. ie spec tire, tire size limits etc.

 

One thing is for sure, we gotta start narrowing this down.


I’m leaning towards OTA Raw. We’re already somewhat familiar with the system. At first glance it seems fairly straight forward. Can we get some insight as to what are the problems/cons with OTA Raw?

 

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54 minutes ago, Mat said:


I’m leaning towards OTA Raw. We’re already somewhat familiar with the system. At first glance it seems fairly straight forward. Can we get some insight as to what are the problems/cons with OTA Raw?

 

How impossible it is to class a modified car. Today reading over ota rules I discover I have never classed a car with a dyno sheet correct. We have always imputed whp #’s. There a fun chart of a factor to apply to the dyno number to obtain crank hp. It has a variable for fwd,rwd and awd. And another factor for every type of dyno. Everything about classing our cars in the pax book is a painful over complicated system. 

It is a massive buzz kill to anyone that actually wants to build a car to a class because it’s very hard to see what a class limit is. What a competitive time per each class will be. And then when you get it all figured out they adjust the base pi on your car and you bump a class anyways

in all honesty if cars ever got contested with our current rule book it would be a absolute nightmare to scrutinize them properly since I don’t believe anyone actually has a handle on our rule book unless the car is stock.  
 

also just straight up the massive discrepancy in pax modifiers. We penalize a sequential transmission at 1.5 pip and a carbon hood at 2 pips. We over penalize basic modifications the average person does and pretty much give a pass to somebody willing to drop 15k on a transmission.

This is why pax is so unattractive to anyone new to it. 

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34 minutes ago, donrolandofurioso said:

Can you please give us access to the OTA Raw rules, so that we can peruse the difference compared to the regular OTA rules?

I think ota raw is referring to using everything we currently do. But then just letting all the classes compete amongst themselves instead of applying the pax to create the overall  

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5 minutes ago, Tysawch said:

I think ota raw is referring to using everything we currently do. But then just letting all the classes compete amongst themselves instead of applying the pax to create the overall

I am not sure whether he is referring to that. Doing so would definitely be the easiest way to move forward....

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51 minutes ago, FFAttack said:

Page 47 seems to be unrelated. But from what I see the 4 classes mentioned would be enthusiast - street - limited -unlimited. I don’t hate it haha. I was very much under the impression ota raw time was the current rules minus the pax factor. These rules essentially feel like 4 year old Gridlife rules with some small variations. Nice to see it open up some aero options even in enthusiast. 

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I have a number of concerns regarding OTA RTC and my 350Z NISMO

  1. Falken RT-660 tires with a UTQG-rating of 200, bumps it into “Street RTC 2” from “Enthusiast RTC 3”
  2. The OEM tires sizes with 265 on the rear also bumps it into “Street RTC 2”
  3. OEM seam welding and additional bracing appears to put it in “Limited RTC 1”
  4. OEM rear wing might be considered to be two wing elements (one fastened to the rear hatch and the second one higher up in the air) also appears to put it in “Limited RTC 1”

The 2023 Gridlife rules are different in these 4 areas. 

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8 hours ago, Tysawch said:

Page 47 seems to be unrelated. But from what I see the 4 classes mentioned would be enthusiast - street - limited -unlimited. I don’t hate it haha. I was very much under the impression ota raw time was the current rules minus the pax factor. These rules essentially feel like 4 year old Gridlife rules with some small variations. Nice to see it open up some aero options even in enthusiast. 

Yeah it does feel like an early Gridlife, I think the refinements in the last 5 years are evident. I don’t like that I’m in limited due to my added safety (8 point cage) I had the same issue with GTA. You should not be class bumped due to a safety device above and beyond the requirement. 
 

I think OTA RAW with current OTA classing we use with out the PAX would be the easy button. As Mat said and I agree with him, we should not expect to attract out of town competitors given the physical and condition barriers in place. I have spoken to my TA buddies in BC and AB and coming to Manitoba is a non starter for them. The cost of travel (was $3200 last summer BC to MB and back in fuel) and condition of the track currently would prevent most from running. 
 

I’m personally torn what way to go. I have not competed here enough to feel I know what would work best. 

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I think something we all need to keep in mind is that with new a new rule set it won’t be perfect for everyone’s car to immediately slot into the class they would like. It might take some work/time to get competitive 
 

regardless of if we are trying to attract new comers from near or far one of our current rules sets big flaws is how much it penalizes cars the average enthusiast would be bringing out. I always feel bad for the new people that show up with cars capable of the 1:05 range that get put into mod and told they need to target sub minute to be competitive. It’s turns people off and that group of people is the most likely group to be attracted out by time attack

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7 minutes ago, Tysawch said:

regardless of if we are trying to attract new comers from near or far one of our current rules sets big flaws is how much it penalizes cars the average enthusiast would be bringing out. I always feel bad for the new people that show up with cars capable of the 1:05 range that get put into mod and told they need to target sub minute to be competitive. It’s turns people off and that group of people is the most likely group to be attracted out by time attack

That’s a really good point. 

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IF (???) the OTA RTC is what Mat has in mind, then two things are standing out to me:

1)  The need for street legality is strongly highlighted. As a matter of fact, Enthusiast cars must be driven to and from the track! This will affect a much larger amount of people than most realize.

2) The interior rules are very strict. While I understand the thought process behind those rules, they affect people a lot more than they will understand. As far as I remember, Ian and Will have not even a dashboard anymore (not sure about Tyler's Lancer), others have interior pieces removed, some don't even have a stereo anymore to turn on - never mind interior pieces and carpets lying in the garage. Personally, I would have to take my race seat out and put the stock seat back in because the race seat is wider and only fits if the centre console and the door panel are removed. Is it in the spirit of the rules that I need to take out seat and 4-point harness, which I consider safety equipment? Or do I leave it in, and therefore put myself into the unlimited class, confining myself to competition with the fastest cars to drive on GMP?

I personally start leaning strongly towards OTA as we had, but without PAX and therefore no overall winner. All our cars have been built to those rules, we all know what is allowed and what not. Since we are realizing that there most likely won't be any visitors from other provinces, we should at least run one season on OTA without PAX. 

And if we really take dramatic steps towards a new rule set, let's talk about it earlier during the season. Five months to change a car over to completely different rules is not a lot of time, especially for those who either don't have a warm shop to work in, whose car are stored inaccessible for the winter, or who plain and simple have to go and buy a different car because their car cannot feasibly be "down-built" into a lower class.

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1 hour ago, donrolandofurioso said:

I personally start leaning strongly towards OTA as we had, but without PAX and therefore no overall winner. All our cars have been built to those rules, we all know what is allowed and what not. Since we are realizing that there most likely won't be any visitors from other provinces, we should at least run one season on OTA without PAX. 

This!

Only reinvent the rubber on the wheel instead of the wheel itself. Probably the best compromise.

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I’m not competitive, I haven’t made changes to my car that help it class-wise. No matter what the rule set is adopted, I’m just going to ‘run what I brung’. The biggest mod I’ll make may be tire choice when I need new ones.

I’ll have fun with whatever!

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19 minutes ago, David Klassen said:

I’m not competitive, I haven’t made changes to my car that help it class-wise. No matter what the rule set is adopted, I’m just going to ‘run what I brung’. The biggest mod I’ll make may be tire choice when I need new ones.

I’ll have fun with whatever!

That’s probably what 90% of competitors will do. 
 

When we switched from CACC (ASN) to SCCA TT rules I think one person changed their car. The rest of us just ran where we fit and we’re happy it was no longer a 25-30 year old rule and classes. 

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On 12/2/2022 at 4:20 PM, donrolandofurioso said:

Can you please give us access to the OTA Raw rules, so that we can peruse the difference compared to the regular OTA rules?

I’ve been in touch with @Ianfromduff about this. He’s just sent me a draft document that I will quickly discuss with him before we push it.

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I’m going to thank @Weebly in advance for helping create this document. 
 

I think we’ve come full circle with our plan for next season. TA really is the new headlining discipline at GMP. I’m looking forward to a multi-championship TA grid in 2023.

Edited by Mat
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5 hours ago, Mat said:

I’m going to thank @Weebly in advance for helping create this document. 
 

I think we’ve come full circle with our plan for next season. TA really is the new headlining discipline at GMP. I’m looking forward to a multi-championship TA grid in 2023.

Yikes - the pressure is on!  I better find a pen and paper.

Seriously folks, I cannot thank Mat enough for encouraging discussion and getting Time Attackers engaged in finding a classing system that will achieve our goal of increasing participation, minimizing costs, and just plain having fun.

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