2023 Pax / Classing Discussion

[FFAttack]

48 minutes ago, nopistons said:

What is the ask?

Are we looking to adhere to the general ideals of what we wanted our TA to be; to remain open and inclusive to all and generate a competitive environment amongst all Entrants? To create a inviting option to classed racing; a stepping stone; with the current investment placed on/in your vehicle of choice.

Or, are we interested in creating or implementing a rule set that you'd have to adhere to, ultimately creating silos, for the the purposes of following western/southern direction?

I think we have this in our race classes.

Remember if you are set up for SCCA, you have a home somewhere in OTA that WSCC has been using.

As someone who has been the face of our schools for many years, trying to grow the entrant list, I have noticed another aspect you may not see! When the disciplines are discussed at our schools, the students are far more interested in running what they already have and being included in equally with everyone else, than focus building a hot rod to a rule set, that ultimately makes people go cross-eyed and become disinterested. Once they find out that what they have is not going to be competitive, or the ability to be, you've lost them, and likely permanently.

Some of the above also applies to our current TA roster. Some are excited to change to something familiar, or following structure from where they'd like to compete. Others will be lost in the endless money game, changing setups to an ever-evolving, never satisfying rule set. (AKA...road racing).

I see where your coming from, yes a PAX system is more of a run what ya brung class. 
 

I have only run one event here on the WSCC PAX system and ultimately I don’t know enough about it to say it’s good or bad.
 

I will say as an outsider it was a bit frustrating not knowing how I was doing compared to others out there. I had no idea if I was fast or slow and I just found it difficult to judge my performance. I use to love being in close competition to people and us mixing it up back and forth for podium. It pushed us all to do better and push a bit more. PAX IMO removes that. 
 

I’m already thinking about ways to change my car for next year to maximize PIP’s that actually improve my PAX rating while sacrificing no overall pace. 
 

The other option is just to run in RAW time class. 
 

Again, I don’t really have a bone in this game here. In my experience big rule changes never make everyone happy and if it would be a detriment to the club I would be against it. 
 

My earlier posts were also not an effort to make WSCC go with SCCA TT classes and rules. It’s just an option from an organization that has been doing racing for a long time. It’s not perfect and has some frustrating issues. 

[nopistons]

8 hours ago, FFAttack said:

I will say as an outsider it was a bit frustrating not knowing how I was doing compared to others out there. I had no idea if I was fast or slow and I just found it difficult to judge my performance. I use to love being in close competition to people and us mixing it up back and forth for podium. It pushed us all to do better and push a bit more. PAX IMO removes that. 

The first sentence is a good take-away. If this is truly how you have felt, then we at WSCC need to do better.

As far as the last point, its unfortunate that you missed a past championship between @donrolandofuriosoand @Rare Snake.
They had a nail biter points race to the end of the season.

[FFAttack]

1 hour ago, nopistons said:

The first sentence is a good take-away. If this is truly how you have felt, then we at WSCC need to do better.

As far as the last point, its unfortunate that you missed a past championship between @donrolandofuriosoand @Rare Snake.
They had a nail biter points race to the end of the season.

Yes, it was. I can look at a printed time sheet and be happy I had the 2nd fastest time of the weekend but that means nothing with PAX. So I was left wondering if I need to push harder or not. I had no idea how I actually finished the event until days later to find I finished so far out of the top it was not even worth trying. 

[Tysawch]

I attached the results from day one of the last event of the year everyone has mentioned. It was awesome. But what I want to point out is that it wasn’t really a great battle because of pax. It was a battle between 2 cars in the same class. It was exciting because it was a battle of raw time essentially. I remember being in the pits watching the times roll in live and everyone watching if Roland would pull the upset off.  I really feel we could have that excitement again but across multiple classes with classing based on raw times. Imagine the excitement of close battles across multiple classes could produce vs one battle for the top that pax can deliver.

 

I want more people to have the ability to be engaged in the sport and have a higher level of enjoyment. 

[Weebly]

For those not familiar with the “old” PAX system, this is what it would’ve looked like for Event #4 last year 2021 (as compared to what Tyler posted above). This particular example had only 8 classes represented. I’ll dig around and see if I can find recent events with representation from more classes.

You will notice that the T3 & T2 guys got pushed down the standings noticeably, while SGT guys moved up. Biggest change, I think, was Darin going from 4^th to 10^th. Too bad, so sad Mr. No Pistons.

Rank	Racer	Car	Best Time	Class	Old PAX	Adjusted Time
1	Wowk, Dason	2019 Hyundai Veloster	01:07.581	TA-T1	0.904	01:01.093
2	Hufgard, Roland	2004 Mazda RX8	01:07.832	TA-T1	0.904	01:01.320
3	Rurak, Rob	2017 Ford Focus RS	01:05.568	TA-GT1	0.952	01:02.421
4	Wiebe, Brian	2017 Ford Focus RS	01:06.522	TA-GT2	0.940	01:02.531
5	Revet, Andrea	2013 Scion FRS	01:06.530	TA-GT2	0.940	01:02.538
6	Trajkov, Stefan	1991 Honda CRX Si	01:09.706	TA-T1	0.904	01:03.014
7	Wiggins, Rob	2019 Ford Mustang	01:08.905	TA-GT4	0.916	01:03.117
8	Cummins, Bryan	2019 Chevrolet Camaro	01:04.791	TA-SGT2	0.976	01:03.236
9	Dallmeier, Ron	1986 Porsche 944	01:04.167	TA-SGT1	0.988	01:03.397
10	Wach, Darin	2004 Mazda RX8	01:12.663	TA-T3	0.880	01:03.943
11	Jordan, Andy	1991 Mazda Miata	01:12.216	TA-T2	0.892	01:04.417
12	Goodman, Team	1991 Nissan BNR32	01:13.618	TA-T3	0.880	01:04.784
13	Balaz, Nick	1982 Toyota Celica Supra	01:12.227	TA-T1	0.904	01:02.293

[Mat]

One thing I am going to ask everyone to consider is dropping the “Overall Championship” model. 
 

Every PAX system will have flaws. Dropping the discipline wide championship and focusing on class champions is what I’m proposing.

 

IMO, PAX will never be 100% fair or accurate so it’s hard for me to get behind it.

 

Classing / PAX will be decided prior to January 1st 2023 to give everyone ample time to prepare.

 

**We will be introducing a rookie league in 2023. You will be eligible for rookie status until you’ve completed 10 competition days. This can span across multiple seasons. More on that in the coming months.**

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Mat

[nopistons]

15 hours ago, Weebly said:

Too bad, so sad Mr. No Pistons.

I tell ya, I lost like a minute of sleep over that! 

[DarkZ34]

All this PAX talk really makes me ralize how little i know about this sport haha, but i do like the idea of the Gridlife classes.

I love any chance i get to come out and get some seat time, as long as i beat my personal time im happy .

Hope i see you guys more in 2023.

Cheers

 

[Rustfree]

Great dialogue and discussion.  This is awesome to see! 

If I may, I'll add my own thoughts:

 

If we can assume the old PAX system was broken, (given that the top placing positions were dominated by cars classed SGT2 or higher) I think it's fair to say that the latest PAX system to rectify the issue may have swung the pendulum a little too far in the opposite direction, given that SGT2 and higher classed cars now occupy the majority of the bottom half positions.

While we can certainly do more scientific calculations to prove this, a simple look at event standings after the PAX multiplier has been applied (old PAX vs newer PAX) would support this position.

Now I'm not suggesting by any stretch, that this was done with intent.  It was merely an attempt to correct an old system and ensure all classes had a more competitive chance.

However, now that we have more data available, we can see that refining the PAX multiplier factor could achieve a more balanced result and can further level the playing field for all, without diving full-on into a whole new classification or rule set.

It will never be perfect, but it can get closer regardless of which direction the club decides to go.  For the record, I am not opposed to either. 

 

[Matter]

Do we have a complete record of Time Attack times?

I'm looking for Date, Driver/Car, Class, Time, Date.

Hopefully something in Excel

[Mat]

7 minutes ago, Matter said:

Do we have a complete record of Time Attack times?

I'm looking for Date, Driver/Car, Class, Time, Date.

Hopefully something in Excel

@Ianfromduff 

[A_Revs]

It has been brought up time and time again certain modifications don’t make sense for how many points are brought up against you in the pax system. Pax in my opinion is not true to time attack but focuses more on a time trial event trying to make a driver the focus without taking their car into account. However, the factors against each car can be unique and the challenge is that you will never get a level playing field when the cars are constantly changing with technology, different trims and new vehicles.

I like the idea of getting rid of this overall championship and going to a classing system where the focus is on track records vs one overall winner. This would actually allow more “winners” per say with a few concise classes and the ability to focus more on machine and driver vs just driver. Cars grouped together in a fashion that you know where they stand in their own category. Pax was getting to a very stiff pointy end of not being fun for those who wanted to showcase the ability to drive and build a car that they 1. Enjoyed driving and 2. Looked cool. It penalized each modification wether it was cosmetic or not because it had to account for modifications which would either be an advantage in one case vs a disadvantage in another. I think the overall competitiveness and one overall winner takes away from people feeling like they would have a shot at even competing when they also need to show up to quite a few events to even be considered in the points. It’s been a few hard years for people to make it out to the track as things get more expensive. We need to consider a bit of this in the equation when someone can make 4 track weekends and another person can make maybe 2 days but want to see where they and their car fall into the standings. 

I am also all for a rookie league. There is so much you learn the first year or two and coming out with a car you didn’t think you would be racing has its clear disadvantages and often times immediately bodes that either you sacrifice track time to modify your car in a more helpful way or deal with being in a spot where you turn laps for fun but want the aspect of a competition to see where you stand. 

[donrolandofurioso]

"I attached the results from day one of the last event of the year everyone has mentioned. It was awesome. But what I want to point out is that it wasn’t really a great battle because of pax. It was a battle between 2 cars in the same class. It was exciting because it was a battle of raw time essentially. I remember being in the pits watching the times roll in live and everyone watching if Roland would pull the upset off.  I really feel we could have that excitement again but across multiple classes with classing based on raw times. Imagine the excitement of close battles across multiple classes could produce vs one battle for the top that pax can deliver."

 

One can argue that the ongoing battle between me and Dason was not despite the PAX system, but because of the PAX system. My car was a GT4 car, and I used the tire rules to get into T1, therefore getting an advantage in the PAX system. There is a possibility that I would have had faster times, but less points if I had run 200 UTGQ tires. I just maximized the PAX system, therefore in my mind the PAX system did help making it an interesting season because it allowed me to race Dason in the same class.

 

Ultimately, I don't need to have an overall winner of the Time Attack championship. 

There are many motorsport disciplines that acknowledge individual classes as equal. For example, in Motocross an 80cc rider can be national champion, while a different rider is 250cc champion, and a third person is 450cc champion - all three of them equally respected and honoured, without the person with the fastest (usually 450cc) bike getting any higher accolades than the fastest one in a slower class. 

However, there are other disciplines that do not separate the individual classes but have some kind of handicap factor for the faster vehicles, enabling a direct comparison between slower classes and faster classes - our PAX system is not unusual in the motorsport world, either. 

I am good with either way. However, removing the PAX system alone does not solve the problem with aligning our system with what is being used in the West. I also point out again: the fewer classes we create, the more money needs to be spent to be competitive. I cannot see how that entices new drivers to join Time Attack. Let's not make Time Attack the playground of a few people by excluding any new participants who have to envision a mountain of modifications just to try to keep up!

There is one more thing (Andrea, I might just misunderstand you): Any championship and any points race is being won by people who show up to compete. We all know how much harder it is for our members from far away to participate at GMP, but there has to be a meaningful number of events counting towards the end result. Any competitor who only attends 50% of the races should not have a chance in the championship against the one who shows up faithfully every time. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by donrolandofurioso

[f0rd]

Lots of good suggestions in this thread already.   It seems like most ideas are trending towards creating 3 or 4 competition groups.

1) OTA classes  (T, GT, SGT, MOD)

2) Gridlife classes (Street, StreetGT, StreetMod, Unlimited)

3) SCCA classes (Sport, Tuner, Max, Unlimited)

4) Ian's rules (Enthusiast, Limited, Unlimited)

 

I thought it would be interesting to see where the 50 time attack entrants from 2022 would fall in each system.  Just to see what the groups might look like, which cars potentially get screwed, and how things would balance out overall between groups.   I started a list, but quickly realized that I don't know what mods most of the cars have, so I didn't get very far!   If anybody feels this would be useful, feel free to populate the list with what you know.   I'm sure there are other driver/cars that didn't compete in 2022 that could be added as well.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UtT8ykimsz-CqPbWff7FhG0IOhb_ISI4SIqmb6VqFLg/edit?usp=sharing

 

[FFAttack]

9 hours ago, f0rd said:

Lots of good suggestions in this thread already.   It seems like most ideas are trending towards creating 3 or 4 competition groups.

1) OTA classes  (T, GT, SGT, MOD)

2) Gridlife classes (Street, StreetGT, StreetMod, Unlimited)

3) SCCA classes (Sport, Tuner, Max, Unlimited)

4) Ian's rules (Enthusiast, Limited, Unlimited)

 

I thought it would be interesting to see where the 50 time attack entrants from 2022 would fall in each system.  Just to see what the groups might look like, which cars potentially get screwed, and how things would balance out overall between groups.   I started a list, but quickly realized that I don't know what mods most of the cars have, so I didn't get very far!   If anybody feels this would be useful, feel free to populate the list with what you know.   I'm sure there are other driver/cars that didn't compete in 2022 that could be added as well.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UtT8ykimsz-CqPbWff7FhG0IOhb_ISI4SIqmb6VqFLg/edit?usp=sharing

 

Good idea. The document was read only for me. 
 

Gridlife -ClubTR (or if that’s not an option Street Mod I’ll be a Rock in a gun fight)

SCCA -Max 4 

Ian’s classing - Limited (Enthusiast with some minor changes (wheel/tire size).   

[Dnfwm]

I prefer anything other than what we currently have.

Look at that sheet above that Brian posted as to how the standings would have been with the old pax system. Notice the leaders were running like 1:01 converted? How interesting that is that I used to run on average 1:01's with a few breakouts under that. My breakouts below a 1:01 usually involved sticker rubber and great conditions. Practically all the other mod cars would also run 1:01 to 1:03's with the exception of Russ being just below the minute mark. 

The new pax system has the leaders running like 57s and 58s converted which completely screwed all the mod cars. 

I stated from the beginning, the rest of the drivers just needed to improve their skills, which is clearly what has happened. 

I haven't set a PB in like two years, almost everyone was setting new PBs every weekend.  

Imagine playing golf six times a year while the club pro plays weekly and has been doing so for years. The club pro studies golf, lives, eats and breathes golf. Everytime you play, you lose. Do you get mad at the club pro and change the rules to benefit you, or do you play more golf? 

The folks in TA changed the rules to benefit themselves, then told the club pro he's a sore loser, a complainer, an idiot, and he's just mad that he can't win anymore.  

Once again, I prefer literally anything other than what we have. 

[Ianfromduff]

10 minutes ago, Dnfwm said:

I prefer anything other than what we currently have.

Look at that sheet above that Brian posted as to how the standings would have been with the old pax system. Notice the leaders were running like 1:01 converted? How interesting that is that I used to run on average 1:01's with a few breakouts under that. My breakouts below a 1:01 usually involved sticker rubber and great conditions. Practically all the other mod cars would also run 1:01 to 1:03's with the exception of Russ being just below the minute mark. 

The new pax system has the leaders running like 57s and 58s converted which completely screwed all the mod cars. 

I stated from the beginning, the rest of the drivers just needed to improve their skills, which is clearly what has happened. 

I haven't set a PB in like two years, almost everyone was setting new PBs every weekend.  

Imagine playing golf six times a year while the club pro plays weekly and has been doing so for years. The club pro studies golf, lives, eats and breathes golf. Everytime you play, you lose. Do you get mad at the club pro and change the rules to benefit you, or do you play more golf? 

The folks in TA changed the rules to benefit themselves, then told the club pro he's a sore loser, a complainer, an idiot, and he's just mad that he can't win anymore.  

Once again, I prefer literally anything other than what we have. 

Can you provide examples how the folks in ta benefitted by the rule change? I don't recall seeing the dirrector moving up in standings any? 

 

I'm all ears to all opinions but would like to see some factual backing behind claims.

[Dnfwm]

The benefit was so mod cars wouldnt win anymore. And as for the data, the sheet is posted right above as to how last years championship would have looked on the old pax system. We were told the old pax system was no good because lower classing cars didn't stand a chance. That sheet above proves very different.

 

As mentioned in my post, I'm literally in favor of any rule book that is widely accepted as standard. Not something that's made specifically for Gimli. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Dnfwm

[Ianfromduff]

I don't see the previous dirrectors listed on that sheet. So i am still misunderstanding on how they changed the rules to benefit themselves. 

When we set up the new rules it had no effect to where we went in the standings. I want to squash this missinformation right now that the rules were only changed to benefit the previous dirrectors. We were mid field with the old pax system and remained midfield with the new pax system. So throwing out "they only changed the to benefit themselves" is a complete myth to dirrect away why we seen the need to modify the classing.

[Dnfwm]

 The pax was changed because mod cars were always winning. "Gimli was a unicorn. A very unique one of a kind track that gave an unfair advantage to high horsepower/mod cars", is what we were all told. 

Well the data above shows the old pax with last year's champions running 1:01s, which would have put them all in contention with all of the mod cars. 

So my question still remains, did the pax need to be changed, or did the drivers need more seat time to be competitive?  

I don't even need an answer because the proof is in the data above. 

This is literally not getting any of us anywhere. So what's the point in arguing. Let's just scrap all of the pax BS and anything that's made up by any of us and go to something that's universally accepted.  Whether thats SCCA, Global Time Attack or Gridlife and have class champions if needed.  

[Tysawch]

I think a large factor to the times improving in the gt/ t cars this year was people widely woke up to 200tw tires not affecting there base pax and buying rt660 and re71’s. In years past we never saw quality tires like those wildly used in lower class cars. People are starting to optimize the cars for the classes. Some more then others
 

either way the issue will be you will never have a fully optimized car with a rockstar driver in every class to base times off of to adjust pax. Hence why it’s never worked. For ota visiting multiple tracks in a season helps them blend cars in a overall as some do better at certain tracks vs others. 
 

this is why I have always wanted to use a classing system that limits everyone equally per class/ car. Pax is way to full of peoples opinions for what a car should run/ should be capable of/ or is a unfair advantage. Black and white rules and a couple classes will Get rid off the ego, bs and crying

 

[f0rd]

3 hours ago, FFAttack said:

Good idea. The document was read only for me. 

Sorry about that, should be editable for all now.

[Mat]

I’m glad you guys got to air some things out here and now we can hopefully move on from there and not look back. 
 

ALL of the discussion above seems positive to me but I’d like to make sure from this point we’re lazer focused on looking forward not back.

To be clear, we will not be endorsing any model that is custom fabricated for Gimli. However it will most likely be a widely accepted classing structure (SCCA etc.) that has been abbreviated to hold us to something like 5 classes rather than 15.

For example, let’s take the T class from 2022. Instead of having cars spread between T1, 2 & 3, splitting the class down the “middle” T1 cars having to “tune down” or limit mods so they fit in T2 and the T3 cars have to step it up to be competitive. This is only an example.

This is something I had to do almost yearly in road race to stay with my group. TA is a very competitive discipline. You are likely going to have to make some changes. Let’s be honest, the days of showing up with an unprepared car and expecting to be able to win a championship are over. That’s not to say that anyone should feel like they HAVE TO mod their car. Anyone is welcome to come out and join a class and improve themselves as a driver. If you’re expecting to win a championship, you’ll likely have to put in some work prior to your event.

Regardless on what we decide on the 8th of December please understand that this WILL BE A SHAKEUP. That’s why we are trying to give everyone 4-5 months to prepare their cars “to be competitive” in their classes.

2023 is going to look different. It’s going to take some adjustment. I believe it will be worth it. Let’s try something new and make racing at GMP even more competitive. TA is the new headlining discipline at GMP. Let’s take the step up.

 

There’s more than one driver deserving of an annual championship. Let’s get it!

Edited November 25, 2022 by Mat

[Mat]

I’m going to thank each of you for your thoughts. I can see points being made on all sides. 
 

Now we point forward.

Everyone will have a chance at a championship in 2023 if they build for their class and hone their skills as drivers. This is our goal. This is our focus.
 

@Dnfwm @Ianfromduff @donrolandofurioso

Edited November 25, 2022 by Mat

[KMiller]

Darin, please don't bring in road racing rules when you seem to have no idea of all classes. I am able to travel anywhere in North America with both my cars and race in a long established classes, with exception of tires. That's why I have built the cars the way I did. If you guys have issues with tin tops, that's the clubs fault by not adhering to established rule sets and take the do what we want attitude. Its not always better to go this route. Simply do a little homework. Not chiming in on TA as I don't follow it so have no idea, except you need to set goals first and work backwards to figure out how to accomplish the goals step by step. As for some comments here, they not true  such as Mat saying the word BOLD stand. It was a voting process and not everyone agrees and has the freedom to pick their own. It should not be seen as a personal attack. I disagreed with how many abstained from voting, but again that is their choice must be respected.  This bickering looks bad on the club.

 

[Mat]

9 minutes ago, KMiller said:

This bickering looks bad on the club.

 

Oh, the irony….

[Mat]

I really don’t want this thread to get hijacked. 
 

If you wanna scrap, show up at the banquet and settle it on the dance floor…or even better on here, in the DM’s.

 

Dont make me host a festivus party…

 

 

[funkejay]

I echo Mat’s comments. So far most of the comments under this thread have shown a lot of thought and energy has gone into finding solutions that will help move the discipline forward, and that is exactly the energy we’re looking to harness as we consider our options for 2023.

But as a reminder we have standards of conduct rules on the forum and we need to keep this discussion respectful, so I’d ask everyone to not make personal comments directed at other Club members or make personal attacks in response to comments. 

If you do, your post will be removed. 

Finally, my two cents. I’ve never raced in T/A and don’t understand any of the black magic you people engage in to determine who is the winner based on classes or modifiers. It’s all Greek to me. So that disqualifies me from having an opinion about which system is better for the WSCC and our racers at GMP. 

However, if we genuinely want to pursue a regional championship and attract competitors from other clubs, rather than just glorify our event by adopting a grandiose title, we need to consider using a consistent rule set with those other clubs. Otherwise you build disincentives into your program, rather than incentives for people to attend. 

Ultimately that may not be the priority for most of our competitors and the focus may be on finding a solution that works in-house for our own Club championship. If so, that isn’t necessarily wrong, it’s just a difference in emphasis, but we need to be cognizant of the consequences associated with whatever solution is ultimately adopted. 

[FFAttack]

Im all for alignment of rules so we don’t have all these small groups with different rules and classes.

Maybe this is better brought up later as it’s not totally relevant but has anyone spoken with the other TA directors in BC and AB to see if there is any interest in a Western Championship? It’s been brought up enough in here I feel it’s worth asking. 

If the above answer is yes then I would ask who would be willing to go to an event in BC or AB if they host one?  I suspect it would be a very small number if any with the cost of fuel for a trip like that. I don’t want to be a downer but I just don’t see the return on investment for them to come here or us go there. 
 

I'm my case being from BC I don’t think even I could justify the $3200ish alone in fuel. 

 

 

[Mat]

14 minutes ago, FFAttack said:

If the above answer is yes then I would ask who would be willing to go to an event in BC or AB if they host one?  I suspect it would be a very small number if any with the cost of fuel for a trip like that. I don’t want to be a downer but I just don’t see the return on investment for them to come here or us go there. 
 

Truth. We’re really good at asking people to come to GMP, we’re not great at returning the favour.