Milwaukee course design

[conebasher]

Ok guys, share with us what the course was like. Any elements we haven't seen? Was it slow or fast? Were the elements close together or spread out? Did it have flow?

[JT_TT]

ok i'll take a little stab at it...Starts:Well there was a mix, the first day was pretty good little straight right off the line. no element at all before my shift to second and then a little gas in second before i really turned in. Day 2 was a different story, very very short straight hard left turn then the timing lights were a couple feet past that corner. not the greatest either way, but they made sure there was lots of room and i don't think anybody really had a problem with them.the course it's self was within my power band of the car so nothing slower then 30km/h at the tightest and usually stayed below 80 the second day i sat on the limiter for about 1 second (90km/h) on one little offset thing, and steve w in his Z06 was on limiter in second which is 70mph!! but those cars have crazy power. lots of wiggling, nothing that really pinched up the car, lots of speed maintenance and tricky brake zones which you really had to stand on the brakes to make the corner and often involved off camber and down hill/over crest braking. there were lots of tightening up sweepers (decreasing radius) which meant late apexing most everything so you could stay in nice and neat and tidy. i think corey has video of the courses...that's if he didn't smash his camera for messing up his last run by wanting to sit in the passenger seat instead of the little console compartment. both times there was a fairly sizable corner coming into the finish so you came across full on the throttle but going at a manageable speed.

[Corey]

The lot is massive, trying to have elements of similar size here would mean you'd have 2-3 turns at each end. Lots of complex elements where the exit of one greatly affects the next one.There was ample room for line selection, but there was a clearly defined fast line through most sections. Going off that line was possible without mowing that many cones but only really done when you screwed up.I was stunned at how close the course passed to curbs/poles/cement bins/etc. They push it right to the minimum limit of the rules.I saved the map and will try to scan it tomorrow or Wednesday.

[SoloSnapshots]

I was stunned at how close the course passed to curbs/poles/cement bins/etc. They push it right to the minimum limit of the rules.

They did get pretty close. In the north east section there was a 3 cone slalom (Chicago Box) in with an easy offset for the middle cone followed by a boxed sweeper which was about 15 feet from the curb. A few cars went threw the outside of the corner in the first heat which had the heaviest ran but no one hit anything anywhere all weekend that I know of. That section had also flooded in the first heat so cars were hydroplanning until a trench was dug for the water while runs continued going. If the trench hadn't worked that section was going to get redesigned for the second heat or sooner.Some other things they did there which have been discussed here were having a cone with different passing in a slalom which wasn't an issue from what I could see and the turn at the start with cones you could hit before the lights which I think got Corey. The start they've done at least the last two years' date=' maybe three. Just some things to think about if you attend a tour event.I liked both courses and would have loved to have driven them both in the dry. It was easy to follow and had a good flow. Day two I only had one course walk and I seemed to do ok figuring out the course and staying on track. On Saturday's course the second/third sweeper at station 1 owned me every run. Just how the cones were set up and where the next segment was to look ahead at had me braking and turning in too early. As long as I have the money and time for it next year I'll be back!Here are the course mapsSaturday[img']http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a300/Autocross/MilwaukeeSaturday.jpgSunday

[conebasher]

Looks like a spin in the wrong place would result in catastrophic damage. It also looks like the course had nice flow to it with some elements that could trick you if you weren't paying attention.

[Rhyno]

Looks like one car at a time on course. Also looks like if you screw up you could be in big trouble. IMO we have a better handle on our course design. 2 cars running at the same time and a more interesting design selection.

[Curtis]

Actually, while Jeff and I were discussing his trip I believe he mentioned that there were three cars on course at a time.

[Corey]

It was always 3, sometimes 4. That lot is WAY bigger than it looks on the map.For reference I was hitting 45 mph before the first right turn on the Sunday course.

[Rhyno]

It was always 3' date=' sometimes 4. That lot is WAY bigger than it looks on the map.For reference I was hitting 45 mph before the first right turn on the Sunday course.[/quote']Wow. That many cars all headed to the same spot. Sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen.

[Corey]

274 cars, each with 6 runs over 2 days plus a few re-runs. No train wrecks! Believe it or not these SCCA people have a pretty good idea of what's safe. ;)If you want a sense of scale: http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=miller+park,+milwaukee,+wi&ie=UTF8&ll=43.029118,-87.964059&spn=0.002886,0.006759&t=h&z=18Notice the white truck parked in the upper right corner of the lot.Even red flags were rare and were usually due to breakdowns. It's hard to imagine the precision of these events until you see it in action, it's like a military operation.

[Rhyno]

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=miller+park,+milwaukee,+wi&ie=UTF8&ll=43.029118,-87.964059&spn=0.002886,0.006759&t=h&z=18Notice the white truck parked in the upper right corner of the lot.Even red flags were rare and were usually due to breakdowns. It's hard to imagine the precision of these events until you see it in action, it's like a military operation.

That is cool. Can we implement some of these ideas?

[SoloSnapshots]

Because they don't have a lot shaped like ours not much can be used from them. There's no way we could get as many cars on course or even use their elements as they flowed because of our lot.

[Jeff]

I think we could take a few pages from their book as far as event operations go, but I think a part of the efficiency in getting cars through came from a lack of rookie drivers. There were opportunities for spins, but the average skill level at a Tour event is much higher than any local event would be. 90% of drivers there at least LOOKED like they knew how to drive, even if they weren't getting the best times.The biggest difference I noticed in the course design (and other SCCA maps I've looked at since) is that almost no elements are limited on both their entry and exit. What I mean by that is that a corner may be preceded by a slalom that limits your ability to make a wide entry, but the exit of that same corner would be open so there are still a variety of line choices before the next element, and plenty of room to recover if you took the wrong line. If a corner's exit is limited by a gate, it likely had a variety of entry possibilities. We should look at that in designing our courses from now on.A good example of that on Tuesday was the North end, where entry into the sweeper was limited by a cone on the left, but there was plenty of room to pick any line you wanted all the way up to the chute heading back south. The lone cone by the east washroom was good too, because while the entry was pinched by the gate preceding it, there was plenty of room after it to either set yourself up right for the 3-cone slalom, or screw your entry up completely.

[conebasher]

The biggest difference I noticed in the course design (and other SCCA maps I've looked at since) is that almost no elements are limited on both their entry and exit. What I mean by that is that a corner may be preceded by a slalom that limits your ability to make a wide entry' date=' but the exit of that same corner would be open so there are still a variety of line choices before the next element, and plenty of room to recover if you took the wrong line. If a corner's exit is limited by a gate, it likely had a variety of entry possibilities. We should look at that in designing our courses from now on.[/quote']I agree, we should really make an effort to have gates and elements open enough to allow a wide variety of line selection. When gates are too narrow or elements are too close together, you are pretty much forced to drive one line or risk taking down cones.