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WSCC Time Attack 2025 Classing Poll


WSCC Time Attack 2025 Classing Poll  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. WSCC Time Attack 2025 Classing Poll

    • WSCC reverts back to the 13-class system that we utilized before 2023. This means that all classes would be split up again into T3, T2, T1, GT4, GT3, GT2 GT1, SGT3, SGT2, SGT1, MOD3, MOD2 and MOD1. This option would allow any car to be relatively competitive.
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    • WSCC leaves the car classifications as run in the '23 and '24 seasons, with four classes: T, GT, SGT, MOD. This would mean that status quo is retained, with all of its advantages and disadvantages.
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    • WSCC is breaking up the current GT class by putting all GT3 and GT4 cars into one class (GT3), while GT2 and GT1 cars compete in a different class (GT1). This allows for a narrowing of the extreme performance gap between the vehicles currently competing in GT; however, it does not address similar -albeit less dramatic- performance differences in T, SGT and MOD.
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2 hours ago, donrolandofurioso said:

I am interjecting here to clarify some things, and to straighten out some incorrect statements some people make.

The PAX system that we have been using pre-2023 is the system that has been used by the Ontario Time Attack group for a long time. They use two different PAX factors; one for slow tracks, and one for fast tracks. Our PAX factors really closely mimic their fast-track PAX. We are definitely not the only ones using this system.

The PAX factor set-up has been used in our club for a long time; it was already being utilized when I joined WSCC. Only in 2023 the then-active Time Attack director decided to do away with the 13 classes by combining them into four classes. There were most definitely advantages to the PAX system, as there were disadvantages. It needs to be said that some of the most vocal opponents of the PAX system didn't even race under the PAX system. They are definitely entitled to their opinion, but what are they basing their opinion on?

 

While I appreciate all the different comments about other classification systems out there, for 2025 I have decided to go with what we have and know. We had a major discussion about utilizing Gridlife, SCCA, modified SCCA etc. some time back, and I am gladly willing to open this discussion again now that we have a track that is smooth enough to invite other racers to.

However, for everybody to even get an idea how their car performs on this -essentially new- track, I am not willing to change technical rules. Let's all get a few laps on the repaved track before we shake everything up. 

So what was the point of this poll then? 
 

It’s ok, you can call me by name we all know you’re eluding to me.  

 

I did Autocross for 6 year with PAX since you asked. 

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Jeremy, I did not use your name because you are not the only one not having raced Time Attack at WSCC under the PAX ruling. I wanted to clear up some of the incorrect statements that have been made.

You asked what the poll was for? To find out how the majority of the people feels about this topic. I fully understand your stance on PAX, and I am not saying that you are wrong, nor that you are right. However, just because you don't like PAX (I draw that assumption from your comments), it does not mean that other people don't get to voice their opinion. The purpose of a poll is to give everybody an equal opportunity to express their opinion.

This poll is there to find out what the majority of Time Attackers want - not what the loudest or brashest Time Attackers want.

 

Edited by donrolandofurioso
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My own two cents; I've always found PAX to be an extremely flawed system. While it can be interesting & curious to see where a specific car may place roughly in relation to cars in a different class, I don't feel that final results and standings should be based on the artificial numbers that PAX produces.

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I don't think there's any honor in winning a race with a slower lap time. If I'm not mistaken in 2022 everyone was competing for the same trophy so 150hp cars were racing against 600hp cars. I think that's ridiculous. If I understand correctly the pax factor is suppose to eliminate any advantage that might come from modifying or building a faster car. Then the people that put in the most time and money are the ones at the biggest disadvantage. That seems like a bad way to try and grow this sport. I agree driver skill is more important then what they drive but I think it should be acceptable to put time and money into modifications to gain lap time.

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On 10/30/2024 at 6:56 PM, T Gooss said:

I don't think there's any honor in winning a race with a slower lap time. If I'm not mistaken in 2022 everyone was competing for the same trophy so 150hp cars were racing against 600hp cars. I think that's ridiculous. If I understand correctly the pax factor is suppose to eliminate any advantage that might come from modifying or building a faster car. Then the people that put in the most time and money are the ones at the biggest disadvantage. That seems like a bad way to try and grow this sport. I agree driver skill is more important then what they drive but I think it should be acceptable to put time and money into modifications to gain lap time.

So it's the car that wins the race not the driver?

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4 hours ago, T Gooss said:

That's not what I'm saying, I think it takes both to win. As car enthusiasts why are we trying to take the car out of the equation?

If your car is properly prepared for whichever class it's in - all is equal. That's pax. Not all enthusiasts feel the need, nor have the ability to put the money into a vehicle. Should they be penalized? This isn't Nascar or F1.

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20 minutes ago, Iceracer said:

If your car is properly prepared for whichever class it's in - all is equal. 

But therein lies the problem... some cars and preparations are more equal than others. One of the biggest flaws I've seen over the years are PAX-favorable cars or PAX-favorable modifications that give runners a loophole or edge into scoring better PAX times.

That sort of system should not be used to dictate final results.

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22 minutes ago, Brian_Earl_Spilner said:

But therein lies the problem... some cars and preparations are more equal than others. One of the biggest flaws I've seen over the years are PAX-favorable cars or PAX-favorable modifications that give runners a loophole or edge into scoring better PAX times.

That sort of system should not be used to dictate final results.

So what's your suggestion then? Afaik there are no other factoring systems that work as well as PAX overall. He who spends the most wins all?

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4 hours ago, Iceracer said:

So what's your suggestion then? Afaik there are no other factoring systems that work as well as PAX overall. He who spends the most wins all?

You're right this isn't Nascar, F1 or autocross. The only time attack that I've heard of that actually uses a factoring system is OTA. There's maybe more but the majority of time attack events that I've seen have regulated classes that compete raw time. 

Why do we need to "properly prepare" a car for its class if pax is supposed to be the great equalizer? 

We've all seen numerous flaws in the pax system so I would disagree with the statement "all is equal". 

I understand everyone has a different budget and it's important that those with a lower budget still have a chance at winning. I think with good regulations and classes there can be room for modifications that improve lap time. With a limit of course, too many modifications would bump you into the next class. This makes the slower classes more favorable to lower budgets. We all know that racing isn't cheap and it's definitely not free. If there are "enthusiasts that don't feel the need or have the ability to put any money into a vehicle" i personally don't think that's how you win a championship in time attack. I don't think they should be "penalized" but I think it should be acceptable to allow some modifications within a class.

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21 hours ago, Brian_Earl_Spilner said:

But therein lies the problem... some cars and preparations are more equal than others. One of the biggest flaws I've seen over the years are PAX-favorable cars or PAX-favorable modifications that give runners a loophole or edge into scoring better PAX times.

If you're wanting to and knowing that you will be competing wouldn't it be a good idea to do research to see which cars work best in their respective classes? There always have been and will always continue to be cars that do well and others that won't/don't. 

Your "reasoning" seems to come across saying the world should be a "fair" place.  

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My issue with pax is that I can't tell if anyone is cheating. You do a car classing that has no easily identifiable limits to a class. example my evo. its ran as a mod car and SGT1 car with the only difference being how much boost it ran. it went fastest as a SGT1 car by 6 tenths (if it was competing for a Sgt class win would that raise concerns?). VS Gridlife or GTA rules that have very fast to identify limits to the classes. I can walk up to a car and visually place it in a Gridlife class fairly quickly and accurately without knowledge of the car since its rules are based on easily scrutinized aspects. ie tire size and tw, aero size and number of wing elements. Explaining pax classing and how it works is and always has been a hurdle to getting new faces out. the rules are very time consuming and cumbersome to negotiate. the only rules I found more frustrating to class with was SCCA. 

Pax has lots of non checkable holes and advantages that are purely based on the cars factory options and class. remember your base model 350z can't have a aftermarket diff without taking pips. But if you have the track pack (VLSD) then you are pip free to swap the diff to a clutch type of your choice well retaining your base pax.(I'm not a fan of these loop holes) This year we seen a 3 second delta with our frs between 2 setups that pax the same. Pax sees no advantage from 2 way coilovers but the transponder told us otherwise. how is it fair to a low class like gt that I can show up on kw 2 ways ($$$) and pax/Class the same as a stock ish frs on entry level suspension? the gridlife rules would punt me up a class and maintain the spirit of a low class to be a entry level stepping stone.

 

my closing thoughts. Pax is not time attack. Time attack is a raw time competition with classes based around tires/ aero and engine size/ aspiration. the best driver does not always win, nor the best prepared car.  regardless of what is decided I will see you all out in 2025 to continue chasing PB's and records

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