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WSCC Time Attack 2025 Classing Poll


WSCC Time Attack 2025 Classing Poll  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. WSCC Time Attack 2025 Classing Poll

    • WSCC reverts back to the 13-class system that we utilized before 2023. This means that all classes would be split up again into T3, T2, T1, GT4, GT3, GT2 GT1, SGT3, SGT2, SGT1, MOD3, MOD2 and MOD1. This option would allow any car to be relatively competitive.
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    • WSCC leaves the car classifications as run in the '23 and '24 seasons, with four classes: T, GT, SGT, MOD. This would mean that status quo is retained, with all of its advantages and disadvantages.
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    • WSCC is breaking up the current GT class by putting all GT3 and GT4 cars into one class (GT3), while GT2 and GT1 cars compete in a different class (GT1). This allows for a narrowing of the extreme performance gap between the vehicles currently competing in GT; however, it does not address similar -albeit less dramatic- performance differences in T, SGT and MOD.
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Up to and including 2022, WSCC ran their Time Attack in accordance with OTA technical rules. There were 13 car classes: T3, T2, T1, GT4, GT3, GT2 GT1, SGT3, SGT2, SGT1, MOD3, MOD2 and MOD1. All cars fell into one of those classes, based on the OTA base car list and any modifications done to the vehicles. The classes were established to enable a low-powered car to be competitive in the championship.
Starting in 2023, a decision was made within our club to reduce the number of classes to four by combining the three T classes into one single class T, the three SGT classes into a single class SGT, and the three MOD classes into a single class MOD. The four GT classes were also combined into one single class GT.

This resulted in nominally larger car counts per class; however, the actual amount of Time Attack participants has dropped since the implementation of this rule.
There are certainly various reasons for that, but it has become evident that some former T/A racers have withdrawn their cars from competition because the new classification rendered their cars non-competitive, as they now had to race against higher spec'd cars. Many owners of T2 and T3, SGT2 and SGT3 cars were not willing to alter their vehicles to the extend necessary to compete against a T1 or SGT1 car. The same can be said of owners of MOD2 and MOD3 cars.
In the GT class, which encompasses the majority of the current T/A participants, the performance differences are even bigger yet as not three, but four classes have been combined. There is currently a difference of about 330hp between the weakest and the strongest engine within this class, with an extreme range in horsepower-to-weight ratio. For many drivers this has become an insurmountable challenge, as they would have to heavily modify their vehicles to match the lap times of stronger (and/or higher hp/lb ratio) cars.

After two years of running the classes T, GT, SGT and MOD, we want to re-evaluate our current system. We are asking all former, current and future Time Attack competitors to vote for one of the following three options:

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  • David Klassen changed the title to WSCC Time Attack 2025 Classing Poll

Yes, PAX modifiers will be applied with the 13 classes. We would revert back to pre-23 points accumulation.

We then also have the option to declare the champion in each of the classes of T, GT, SGT, MOD and Extreme; however, within each class the weaker car will run a different PAX than the stronger car. This way, a T3 car can compete with a T1 car for the championship in class T, for example.

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Negative. The Extreme class will remain in any case as it was created as a catch basin for all the drivers who don't want to classify their cars, as well as a place where people can race with cars that do not fall into the regular T/A rules (i.e. cars that never were sold in Canada, kit cars etc.)

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The fact that the original post omited the fact that going back to 13 classes would also reintroduce the PAX modifiers to all cars is going to skew the vote, or was that the point of omiting it??? From what I have seen, the PAX modifier disproportianally benifits the vehicles with less modifications done, and I dont think that should be what you should be trying to do.

I dont see a problem with breaking up classes with lots of vehicles to be more competitive, but that would not work for all classes. For example, I am the only one in MOD this year. 

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If some ppl need the PAX handicap to be competitive, then how about a comprimize? Keep the classes with no PAX, but add one class with PAX for all that cars that want to run PAX. They can all run in one "PAX Class" since PAX is suppose to be the great equilizer anyways.

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I'm a rookie who doesn't really understand classing, PAX, PIP, etc., and frankly doesn't really care. I compete against myself and enjoy as many cars on the track as possible, when I TA. But I'm in favour of access and participation so, as I understand this, the 13 class system may be best for that. I'd be happy with a really simple to understand 3-class Extreme for everybody...perhaps based only the horsepower to weight PIP. I know there's tons of other technical things to consider but I'm not into it and never will be.  Just want to mash my pedal in a safe, sporting and fun way.  Thanks for engaging in the discussion, appreciate everything the volunteers do. Cheers.

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The previous PAX based system takes alot of the joy out of racing for myself. The simplified way we have done it for 23' and 24' seasons of all RAW times means you earned where you placed fair and square.

Losing because of some math formula makes someone "faster" takes all the pride, fun and driver skill out of it and makes it feel like we give participation awards when they suddenly are faster because of math and modifiers.

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"The fact that the original post omited the fact that going back to 13 classes would also reintroduce the PAX modifiers to all cars is going to skew the vote, or was that the point of omiting it??? "

The lack of talking about the PAX factor was not intentional, nor nefarious in any way. I clearly stated that one of the options would be to go back to the rules that we used pre-2023, and those rules did include the PAX system. There has been no other pre-2023 system. There is zero sense in going back to 13 classes, but not use the PAX factor.

I do agree with your statement that the PAX system seem to favour cars with less modifications. However, competitors owning stock vehicles are also competitors; therefore, I cannot dismiss their opinions and wishes. Hence my decision to have a vote among everybody instead of me just deciding on my own.

There will not be an additional "PAX championship" besides the chosen championship. We can create as many classes as we want, there will always be somebody disadvantaged somehow. The choices are listed, no other options will be considered.

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My only issue .....going back to the 13-class system that was previously in use, had cars being "paxed" into lap-time territory that has never actually been achieved.

Edited by Rustfree
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I would like to point out participation is not dropping off entirely because of classing or the rulebook. Our trailer was not full this year or the prior year. The track conditions have kept our car count down as it deteriorated. This will change with repaving. 

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On 10/22/2024 at 11:14 AM, Rustfree said:

My only issue .....going back to the 13-class system that was previously in use, had cars being "paxed" into lap-time territory that has never actually been achieved.

Very interesting comment @Rustfree  and it got me thinking about the math.  I used Tyler's list of fastest lap times from 2023 and combined that with the PAX factor we used in 2023. Your fastest time of 58.962 takes a beating because MOD1 (I'm assuming you're MOD1) uses a PAX factor of 1.052, resulting in an adjusted lap time of 1:02.028 (ouch!). However, if you actually classed your car as MOD3, then the PAX factor is 1.0 and you would have the fastest overall PAX adjusted time.

I went through the rest of the fastest times for the various classes, but didn't find anyone that broke the one-minute barrier. You'll notice that most of the adjusted times are hovering around the 61 second lap time. Unfortunately, Tyler's list of fastest times uses only the four major classes (MOD, SGT, GT, T), but doesn't break it down into its sub-class.  I took some liberties, knowing most of the drivers, and assigned a sub-class as shown below.

Maybe the PAX system isn't so bad after all?

 

 

Raw

Pax Factor

Adjusted Time

MOD 1

58.962

1.052

62.028

MOD 2

60.075

1.012

60.796

MOD 3

60.436

1

60.436

SGT1

61.712

0.988

60.971

SGT2

63.819

0.976

62.287

SGT3

63.844

0.964

61.546

GT1

64.726

0.952

61.619

GT2

65.671

0.94

61.731

GT3

65.829

0.928

61.089

GT4

66.013

0.916

60.468

T1

67.581

0.904

61.093

T2

68.562

0.892

61.157

T3

69.701

0.88

61.337

 

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That chart tells me, a GT1 car has to run a 1:03.517 to even match the GT4 record at 1:06.013.

That's 1.209 seconds the PB for GT1 needs to find, or be in equivalent of current RAW times of the SGT class, but with a GT Car with PAX... 

Even my PB in GT1 is 2.379 seconds slower than what's required to match the GT4 record with PAX. But hey, if we need participation awards via math more than driver skill to make everyone happy, maybe Road Racing is calling next year.

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I had a whole big reply posted on my initial reaction to this poll a couple weeks back, but I deleted it quickly as I feared it would open up a can of worms.

But it looks like a few more racers who were competing the last time we ran PAX seem to see it exactly the way I do. It was a good system, but it leaned a bit heavy towards the slowest cars with the newest adjustments that were made. My top times in one of the slowest classes, gave the record breaking ACR, and anyone else in that higher class, a next to impossible time to beat. I always thought a bit more tweaking was all it needed, but it was ditched anyway.  I don't pretend to understand the amazing brains and math that goes into these calculations, I just see the end results on race day. All I know is that I drove the pants off that poor little red car!  haha

I don't understand why we can't just run whatever classes any other track in North America uses for theirs, why do we always have to be customizing things? Is it because we're car people? It would be nice to be on the same page as if I were to race elsewhere. 

My choice to vote for keeping things the same was based on the past talks we have all had about the current PAX system. It has more flaws than the way we are currently running, and sadly, those were our only options. And the track being repaved will be a big enough change for one year, in my opinion.

 

Edited by Rare Snake
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20 hours ago, Weebly said:

Very interesting comment @Rustfree  and it got me thinking about the math.  I used Tyler's list of fastest lap times from 2023 and combined that with the PAX factor we used in 2023. Your fastest time of 58.962 takes a beating because MOD1 (I'm assuming you're MOD1) uses a PAX factor of 1.052, resulting in an adjusted lap time of 1:02.028 (ouch!). However, if you actually classed your car as MOD3, then the PAX factor is 1.0 and you would have the fastest overall PAX adjusted time.

I went through the rest of the fastest times for the various classes, but didn't find anyone that broke the one-minute barrier. You'll notice that most of the adjusted times are hovering around the 61 second lap time. Unfortunately, Tyler's list of fastest times uses only the four major classes (MOD, SGT, GT, T), but doesn't break it down into its sub-class.  I took some liberties, knowing most of the drivers, and assigned a sub-class as shown below.

Maybe the PAX system isn't so bad after all?

 

 

Raw

Pax Factor

Adjusted Time

MOD 1

58.962

1.052

62.028

MOD 2

60.075

1.012

60.796

MOD 3

60.436

1

60.436

SGT1

61.712

0.988

60.971

SGT2

63.819

0.976

62.287

SGT3

63.844

0.964

61.546

GT1

64.726

0.952

61.619

GT2

65.671

0.94

61.731

GT3

65.829

0.928

61.089

GT4

66.013

0.916

60.468

T1

67.581

0.904

61.093

T2

68.562

0.892

61.157

T3

69.701

0.88

61.337

 

I hear what you're saying Brian, but I don't believe the PAX system was used in 2023.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but if you look at the PAX adjustments in the 2021 and 2022 seasons, at several events, I recall times were "paxing into" the 57's and low 58's.

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5 hours ago, Rare Snake said:

My choice to vote for keeping things the same was based on the past talks we have all had about the current PAX system. It has more flaws than the way we are currently running, and sadly, those were our only options. And the track being repaved will be a big enough change for one year, in my opinion.

I completely agree.  For the sake of science, changing one variable at a time makes the most sense .....and a new track surface is a big change that will impact everyone.

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I find that when you have more time to think, plan, and react its less challenging to go fast. Maybe that's why pax seems to favor slower cars? As stated, the track can also favour certain vehicles. We see this at autocross all the time.

Pax also assumes a vehicle is fully prepped to the class rules and is being driven to it's maximum performance capabilities on an ideal surface. Does everyone have the best car for each class fully prepped and the skills to use it? If not, there's a bunch of invalid points being made.

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On 10/18/2024 at 7:11 PM, Anonychuk said:

The previous PAX based system takes alot of the joy out of racing for myself. The simplified way we have done it for 23' and 24' seasons of all RAW times means you earned where you placed fair and square.

Losing because of some math formula makes someone "faster" takes all the pride, fun and driver skill out of it and makes it feel like we give participation awards when they suddenly are faster because of math and modifiers.

Pax allows more people to compete against each other as fairly as possible. Wanting fewer classes grouping unevenly prepared cars seems like more of a participation trophy for the people with faster cars and fatter wallets.

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This whole classing thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth after the last meeting. Let’s get through a season on the new surface and then let the next time attack director re evaluate. Mathematical formulas have no place in Time Attack period. PAX belongs in Autocross and that’s it. 
 

My vote is copy a popular time attack classing system from the U.S. and paste into our rule book. We are too small a group to have our own classing system it just further isolates us from others coming from other states and provinces. 
 

rant/

Edited by FFAttack
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21 hours ago, FFAttack said:

This whole classing thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth after the last meeting. Let’s get through a season on the new surface and then let the next time attack director re evaluate. Mathematical formulas have no place in Time Attack period. PAX belongs in Autocross and that’s it. 
 

My vote is copy a popular time attack classing system from the U.S. and paste into our rule book. We are too small a group to have our own classing system it just further isolates us from others coming from other states and provinces. 
 

rant/

I truly have no skin in this game other than maybe wanting to try some time attack down the road, but why would PAX work for one, but not for the other? Or is that not what you meant?

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23 hours ago, FFAttack said:

This whole classing thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth after the last meeting. Let’s get through a season on the new surface and then let the next time attack director re evaluate. Mathematical formulas have no place in Time Attack period. PAX belongs in Autocross and that’s it. 
 

My vote is copy a popular time attack classing system from the U.S. and paste into our rule book. We are too small a group to have our own classing system it just further isolates us from others coming from other states and provinces. 
 

rant/

I apologize for assuming that the pax system being used was a common one. I didn't know that it was a one off. That doesn't change my views on using pax for time attack but it does on using the pre 2023 WSCC pax. I would vote for using an established pax system for the 2025 time attack season.

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

I truly have no skin in this game other than maybe wanting to try some time attack down the road, but why would PAX work for one, but not for the other? Or is that not what you meant?

I don’t believe PAX should be anywhere. 

21 minutes ago, Curtis said:

I apologize for assuming that the pax system being used was a common one. I didn't know that it was a one off. That doesn't change my views on using pax for time attack but it does on using the pre 2023 WSCC pax. I would vote for using an established pax system for the 2025 time attack season.


Time Attack or the sprit of time attack is building the best car you can and driving it to the fastest lap you can. Not racing a calculator and guy in a car that is 9 seconds slower in a stock car or near stock car. 

I have never heard of PAX used in any other sanctioning body’s time attack classing. The only place I have heard it used is Autocross. As you can tell I don't care for it. 

I did Time Attack in BC from 2017-2021 and in that time they had a bispoke classing system that was out dated and participation had dwindled to 4-8 car fields as a support event for road racing. Classing was changed in 2019 to follow SCCA Time Trials new classing system. They now regularity sell out entire events for time attack, full days multi day events, and even evening events. They have events at multiple tracks now it’s revived the sport in BC. 

Im not suggesting we adopt that classing just showing that a big change like that can turn things around. 

If some really want or need to have the PAX great, put your name on a list of drivers that want PAX and grab your calculators to fight it out. The rest of us will do Time Attack. 
 

 

 

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I am interjecting here to clarify some things, and to straighten out some incorrect statements some people make.

The PAX system that we have been using pre-2023 is the system that has been used by the Ontario Time Attack group for a long time. They use two different PAX factors; one for slow tracks, and one for fast tracks. Our PAX factors really closely mimic their fast-track PAX. We are definitely not the only ones using this system.

The PAX factor set-up has been used in our club for a long time; it was already being utilized when I joined WSCC. Only in 2023 the then-active Time Attack director decided to do away with the 13 classes by combining them into four classes. There were most definitely advantages to the PAX system, as there were disadvantages. It needs to be said that some of the most vocal opponents of the PAX system didn't even race under the PAX system. They are definitely entitled to their opinion, but what are they basing their opinion on?

 

While I appreciate all the different comments about other classification systems out there, for 2025 I have decided to go with what we have and know. We had a major discussion about utilizing Gridlife, SCCA, modified SCCA etc. some time back, and I am gladly willing to open this discussion again now that we have a track that is smooth enough to invite other racers to.

However, for everybody to even get an idea how their car performs on this -essentially new- track, I am not willing to change technical rules. Let's all get a few laps on the repaved track before we shake everything up. 

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