Jump to content
Winnipeg Sports Car Club
  • Announcements

    • Jim Eh.

      Annual General Meeting   10/30/2017

      The Winnipeg Sports Car Club invites you to attend the 2017 Annual General Meeting and election of Directors and Officers. 
      Thursday, November 23, 2017     Canad Inns “Boardroom”, 826 Regent Avenue @ Plessis (not the casino).   (more...)
      The Boardroom is down the hall by Tavern United (not the Annex room that is off the Aaltos restaurant). 

      6:00pm
      We have the Boardroom beginning at 6:00pm. Come and join us for dinner. Take food from the Aaltos buffet back to the Boardroom where a server will take drinks orders. The club will pay half the cost of your meal.
       
      7:00pm
      The annual general meeting will start at 7:00pm.    

      Please plan on attending to ensure we have a quorum to conduct the annual club business and elect next years executive.

      Thank you,
      WSCC Executive
white_cross

1973 Celica ST (considering subframe connectors)

Recommended Posts

So I have been looking for a 1971-1972 Celica restoration project for about 10 years and my dad found me one a few weeks back! So we stopped in at the shop where it is located to take a look at it and see if the owner was around to talk to. He was there and told me to make an offer on it. I offered him the $ that I started saving for dyno time on the Mach 1. So I am in the process

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry my 9 month old daughter just pressed enter and I actually had not finished typing what I wanted to say. Here is the rest of it. He wanted a bit more cash for the car but said I have first shot at buying the car So hopefully very soon I will have this thing at home. The story on the car. It belonged to a guy who babied it and then ended up getting some metal issues and so it sat on the street and became and "eyesore" to the neighbors. It then was brought to a compound and on its way to the shredder when the current owners friend contacted him and he ended up with it.  So here it is as it sits:

 

ccc.jpg

IMG_1880.jpg

 

All the chrome and missing stuff is there and inside the car it was removed for primer. There is rust. 

 

this is what I have in mind for the finished product:

 

701oriontourquisemetallic.jpeg

 

So I have been doing some reading up on these cars and noticed that people are putting f20c engines/transmissions in these cars and that intrigued me. Especially when I read they are Corvette killers set up like that. From factory the Celica weighs just over 1900 pounds and I think the S2000 weighs more like 2600 pounds right? I am thinking the power to weight ratio with the celica and F20C would make it quite quick. What does the hp come to on an Honda S2000? If someone has a way to figure out power to weight ratio that would be cool to compare it to my Mustang.

 

Here is one of my all time favorite F20C Swapped Celica's: http://www.superstreetonline.com/features/130-0802-toyota-celica-identity-crisis/

 

Well I will keep you guys posted on how things go with purchasing this car.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this is a F20 thread but just throwing it out there...

 

Many swap in the 3800 SII (which is also my choice) out of a 96 - 02 Camaro.

 

Very small package and bullet proof. 400+hp and rock solid reliability are easy peasy.

Harnesses and computers can be turned into stand alone units with ease as well. Tuning is cheaper and simpler!

Drop outs are less than $1000 with trans and harness!

 

Like i said...just another option that wont pop when you rev it out for the first time! :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know this is a F20 thread but just throwing it out there...

 

Many swap in the 3800 SII (which is also my choice) out of a 96 - 02 Camaro.

 

Very small package and bullet proof. 400+hp and rock solid reliability are easy peasy.

Harnesses and computers can be turned into stand alone units with ease as well. Tuning is cheaper and simpler!

Drop outs are less than $1000 with trans and harness!

 

Like i said...just another option that wont pop when you rev it out for the first time! :P

You are talking about the same type of 3800 as the GTP except for rear wheel drive chev products right? These don't make 400hp stock though do they? Ideally I would like to swap in the Same motor as my Mach 1 has but I think even it being all aluminum would still add a lot of weight to the nose of the car which would throw off weight balance sure would do nice burn outs though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

240 hp out of an S2000 engine.  But, I would not swap one.  Too expensive, high-strung, etc.  Don't get me wrong, they're fun, but the OMG IT SPINS TO 9000 aspect is only cool for so long.  

 

I'd put something else in that can make more power and is cheaper.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

240 hp out of an S2000 engine.  But, I would not swap one.  Too expensive, high-strung, etc.  Don't get me wrong, they're fun, but the OMG IT SPINS TO 9000 aspect is only cool for so long.  

 

I'd put something else in that can make more power and is cheaper. 

Thanks for the input, Good to hear thoughts from an S2000 owner. The 18R in the car still runs but only makes around 70 hp and I defiantly want the to make a lot more when I am done the restoration. I am used to a fast car so it would be something I would want in this one. One thing I don't want to do though is make it very nose heavy with too much weight up front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Honda K-series is the latest hot thing. But they are priced accordingly too. Andy Hollis is swapping one into a Miata.

That 3800 sounds awesome!

A random thought/question - do you have the hood height to make a modern engine work?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You are talking about the same type of 3800 as the GTP except for rear wheel drive chev products right? These don't make 400hp stock though do they? Ideally I would like to swap in the Same motor as my Mach 1 has but I think even it being all aluminum would still add a lot of weight to the nose of the car which would throw off weight balance sure would do nice burn outs though!

 

 

Yes.

 

The N/A series 2 3800's make 205hp/230tq in FWD cars and a bit more in the Camaro's. The L36 and L67's are identical in every way except pistons and rods and even the L36 loves boost. Top swaps are common and cheap.

 

L67 with a cam, pulley and headers is about 415 crank HP. They are essentially sawed off iron block LS1's

 

I would not put the modular V8 in. Wayyy too bulky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Honda K-series is the latest hot thing. But they are priced accordingly too. Andy Hollis is swapping one into a Miata.

That 3800 sounds awesome!

A random thought/question - do you have the hood height to make a modern engine work?

Hoods ar highly overrated!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just had to post this it made me laugh with the top gun music: 

 

The Honda K-series is the latest hot thing. But they are priced accordingly too. Andy Hollis is swapping one into a Miata.

That 3800 sounds awesome!

A random thought/question - do you have the hood height to make a modern engine work?

The 3800 does sound cool, and I remember the Buick Grand National used to be one of the faster muscle cars back in the 80's. I think there should be enough hood clearance, I have seen all kinds of engines fit under the stock hood: SB 350, Mustang 4.6 cobra engine, Lexus 1UZ, skyline and supra inline 6 engine etc.

 

 

 

You are talking about the same type of 3800 as the GTP except for rear wheel drive chev products right? These don't make 400hp stock though do they? Ideally I would like to swap in the Same motor as my Mach 1 has but I think even it being all aluminum would still add a lot of weight to the nose of the car which would throw off weight balance sure would do nice burn outs though!

 

 

Yes.

 

The N/A series 2 3800's make 205hp/230tq in FWD cars and a bit more in the Camaro's. The L36 and L67's are identical in every way except pistons and rods and even the L36 loves boost. Top swaps are common and cheap.

 

L67 with a cam, pulley and headers is about 415 crank HP. They are essentially sawed off iron block LS1's

 

I would not put the modular V8 in. Wayyy too bulky.

 

What is the weight on the 3.8L? The L67 and L36 which cars did they come in and which had 5/6 speed rwd behind them. I know with the ford 3.8 engine swaps (I had a 3.8 ford mustang the car was too heavy for that motor in NA form) it was important not to pull a fwd engine for a rwd car. I imagine that there are a bunch of gm transmissions that will match up if it is similar to an LS block for example the T56 Magnum.

 

Crazy thought, 2gr and trans from a is350.
If the shell was mint a isf motor (mucho dinero)

 

Tell me more about this engine and trans I don't know much about them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't confuse the 3800 SII with the 3.8L Buick engine. although very similar in nature, they don't share much in common beyond displacement.

 

There is a build thread out there for a 3800 SII powered 1971 KE27 Corolla and KE70 Corolla.

 

Not sure on the weight but i suspect that the engine is about 300lbs fully dressed. I have a few here and might be able weigh one if you are hard up for numbers. they are extremely compact and share the LS1 V8 full roller valve train and big rod/crank bearings.

 

N/A 3800's (SII or SIII) came in any GM full size FWD car from 97 to 2008 (regal, intrigue, Grand Prix, Monte Carlo etc etc etc). Best years being 99-02. RWD models came from the camaro's and firebirds from 96-02. They have a T5WC behind them but you can install a T56 if you really want with a QT Bell Housing. The 3800 has the small GM bolt pattern (2.2 I4, 2.8v6, 3.4v6 and 5.3L LS4).

 

The S/C engines were available from '97-'08 FWD cars as above. Best years are 99 and 00 (worst is '97). You can top swap (heads intake and blower) a N/A model. all gaskets interchange. Many ditch the M90 for a GT35R or similar turbo. SIII heads have bigger valves. GenV blowers are slightly more efficient but not worth the extra $$$ to upgrade until you've stretched the limits of the GEN3.

 

NOTE: Blocks from 97-99 N/A engines have the starter mounting bosses drilled and tapped on both sides of the block. Some L67's do too. starters swapped sides in mid '99 on FWD cars and will need to drill and tap block to install starter for RWD trans.

 

My avatar picture is my GP GTX from years ago. I was pushing an easy 350hp to the ground with an automatic with minor mods. Hauled its fat 3600lb ass down the dragstrip sub 13s @ 115mph. It was my daily driver as well.

 

 

The 2GR-FE is a Camry V6. Good engines but physically large. They can make over 1000hp though!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN7xIEb3nFU

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was referring to the 2gr as in the Camry/sienna/RAV4/Venza. It's. 3.5lv6 putting out 280 in most toyotas. It came mounted in a rwd orientation in the is350 (2006 and up) and was up over 300 in later years.

The base motor was the 4gr-fse which was a 2.5v6 with a optional 6 speed manual with 205hp.

What are your power goals?

I love the beams 3sge out of the altezza in Japan.

Rwd 2.0L 8k redline with 210hp and comes with a 6 speed manual.

I'm not a big fan of cross breeding unless absolutely necessary, or really sensible financially.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3S beams is a tall engine.

I do agree about cross breeding and struggled with this decision with my AE86.

You can't beat the cost of power and reliability out of a GM power plant.

Cheap to buy, cheap to make gobs of HP and cheaper to maintain!

Not to mention for the same or less weight!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found this: http://www.norotors.com/index.php?topic=4555.0

and this (fits under the stock hood): http://s46.photobucket.com/user/xenlee/media/74%20celica%20ls1/ls1%20celica/1367948282_zps63d0b10e.jpg.html

 

3S beams is a tall engine.

I do agree about cross breeding and struggled with this decision with my AE86.
You can't beat the cost of power and reliability out of a GM power plant.

Cheap to buy, cheap to make gobs of HP and cheaper to maintain!
Not to mention for the same or less weight!

 

I Would like to see your AE86 that sounds cool and thanks for the further info on engine stuff. Can you get a nice exhaust sound from one of those 3800 engines?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was referring to the 2gr as in the Camry/sienna/RAV4/Venza. It's. 3.5lv6 putting out 280 in most toyotas. It came mounted in a rwd orientation in the is350 (2006 and up) and was up over 300 in later years.

The base motor was the 4gr-fse which was a 2.5v6 with a optional 6 speed manual with 205hp.

What are your power goals?

I love the beams 3sge out of the altezza in Japan.

Rwd 2.0L 8k redline with 210hp and comes with a 6 speed manual.

I'm not a big fan of cross breeding unless absolutely necessary, or really sensible financially.

I guess power goals for me are being able to keep up with the Mach 1. Now I have had a taste of a fast car and could not go back to a slower one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I did a little weight research the 18rg in the celica weighs 385 pounds and the LS1 weighs 400-430 which is not that much difference. and if the 3800 weighs 300 then then it is also a good swap option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an interesting thread. I'm learning, too. :)

 

If you don't mind me asking, what is your ultimate power goal and do you have other considerations like exhaust note, streetability (daily or just Sunday cruiser / drag strip?), reliability, future upgrade possibility, weight reduction, etc. Will you consider 4 banger, V6, V8, turbo, supercharger, etc.? If you tell us your list of wants, that might help narrow it down for you.

 

I wonder if anyone's ever assembled a table of engines for common motor swaps comparing power vs weight vs cost vs ease of use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those weights with trans?

 

I just did a quick search but I should check that too. That LS1 Celica total weight was about 800 pounds less than the corvette. I am guessing the corvette where the LS1 came from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an interesting thread. I'm learning, too. :)

 

If you don't mind me asking, what is your ultimate power goal and do you have other considerations like exhaust note, streetability (daily or just Sunday cruiser / drag strip?), reliability, future upgrade possibility, weight reduction, etc. Will you consider 4 banger, V6, V8, turbo, supercharger, etc.? If you tell us your list of wants, that might help narrow it down for you.

 

I wonder if anyone's ever assembled a table of engines for common motor swaps comparing power vs weight vs cost vs ease of use.

 

I guess power goal would be 250-300rwhp 300 is probably very crazy already. In the beginning I may just stick with the original 18rg because it is supposed to still run. My use for the car? Just have fun with it, I have looked for a Celica for years and to just drive one would be exciting. I don't care for drag but with power like that might have to try it. For me a nice suspension and wheels/tires would be first on the list after body repair. As far as engines I am not fussy but I do like a good sounding v8! No list out there for comparison swaps, most things on these cars is taken from other cars (Mainly AE86) or made. I will put more thought into this reply later but I have to get to work talk to you all later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

T5WC weighs less than 100lb by picking it up. I could verify that too. My T56 is a beast. Too large to fit in the tunnel I would guess.

You can get a decent note from the V6 with a couple borla pro-xs mufflers but I'm biased! No V6 truly sounds all that great but better than a 4 banger reving to the moon sounding like an old Singer sewing machine.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if anyone's ever assembled a table of engines for common motor swaps comparing power vs weight vs cost vs ease of use.

 

There's a lot of info on the locostusa forum.  There's a stickyed thread with pictures of engines hanging from scales - this ensures that if someone posts a weight, it's clear exactly what is being weighed.  Things like manifolds, starter, flywheel, etc. can easily add up to 50+ lbs.

 

S2000 F20C + transmission is shown at 408 lbs.  Honda K20 + Miata transmission would probably be similar as I've weighed a K20a3 and it was ~300 lbs complete and a miata trans is I think somewhere between 75 and 100 lbs depending on year and 5-speed vs 6-speed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool that you found this. I've wanted a 77 liftback for years now. Spent many hours debating with myself what kind of engine I would put in it if I got one. No way my wife would allow my to get another project for a while though so I'm not even looking so I don't disappoint myself lol

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×