2013 Team Series

[Jeff]

I'd prefer that too. PAX is trash.As long as the teams are evenly distributed with different types of cars/drivers' date=' there should be no reason whatsoever to use that crap.[/quote']We all know how you feel about PAX. Quit spreading your propaganda already.

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

We all know how you feel about PAX. Quit spreading your propaganda already.

Hahaha propaganda! Forgive me for not bending over and taking PAX up the rear like so many people here who, for whatever reason, love it.Just saying. There should be no reason to use PAX for the team scoring.

[Corey]

There should be no reason to use PAX for the team scoring.

Shhh, the grown-ups are talking.

[Beau]

PAX takes the car out of the equation and is the only way to compare drivers, thus making the teams fair. If you took an average driver and put him/her in a fast car, his/her time goes way down and that would not be fair. Also, the reverse is true. Take a good driver and put them in a slow car - nobody wants that person anymore because they are handicapped by the car. So it would become a challenge of who can get a codrive in the fastest car.

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

PAX takes the car out of the equation and is the only way to compare drivers' date=' thus making the teams fair. If you took an average driver and put him/her in a fast car, his/her time goes way down and that would not be fair. Also, the reverse is true. Take a good driver and put them in a slow car - nobody wants that person anymore because they are handicapped by the car. So it would become a challenge of who can get a codrive in the fastest car.[/quote']Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong.Most people have been here long enough to know who's fast and who isn't. If the teams are assigned properly, with a fair mix of fast AND slow drivers/cars in each team, the competition can potentially be fierce with raw times alone. There are more than enough past event and historical event results to make informed team assignment choices.Saying that PAX is absolutely required is just lazy.

[Jeff]

Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong.Most people have been here long enough to know who's fast and who isn't.

Bzzzzzzzzzzt. Wrong.You haven't been out much lately' date=' so I'll give you a mulligan. We have more new competitors this year than ever before, so the committee making the teams doesn't yet know who's going to get fast this year and who isn't. Wouldn't it be unfortunate if someone with a slower car got really good, but still got out-scored by the guy in the fast car who hasn't improved much? Carrying on with that idea, here is a simple argument for PAX:

• A great driver can place top-5 Raw in maybe 35% of the cars that show up to an average WSCC event;
• A great driver can get top-5 in PAX in maybe 50% of the cars that show up to an average WSCC event;
• Therefore, PAX limits the potential of fewer competitors than raw does, i.e., it creates a more even playing field.
• Furthermore, it's cheaper to remove mods and prep to a lower class than it is to just make your car faster overall; and
• As a club, we have to think about sustainability. Rewarding competitors who prep for real classes is a way of encouraging commitment to the sport, and therefore to the club.

[Jeff]

And if you want an even simpler argument:Catering to the noisy few rarely gets you far with the silent majority.

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

Carrying on with that idea' date=' here is a simple argument for PAX:

• A great driver can place top-5 Raw in maybe 35% of the cars that show up to an average WSCC event;
• A great driver can get top-5 in PAX in maybe 50% of the cars that show up to an average WSCC event;
• Therefore, PAX limits the potential of fewer competitors than raw does, i.e., it creates a more even playing field.
• Furthermore, it's cheaper to remove mods and prep to a lower class than it is to just make your car faster overall; and
• As a club, we have to think about sustainability. Rewarding competitors who prep for real classes is a way of encouraging commitment to the sport, and therefore to the club.

Except for one thing...All of that is fine and dandy for the regular championship points competition... Which the team competition isn't.Whatever. Even in the first year experimentation stage of a new event, everyone is still so bent on continuing to suck PAX's dick instead of perhaps TRYING something different for once.

[Need my Focusin]

TRYING something different for once.

Was PAX mean to you in high school or something?

[MRS Joe]

Was PAX mean to you in high school or something?

Kosta is trying to be the leader of a small movement. It's funny though that the largest opponent to pax doesn't even regularly race. I haven't seen him at a autox in years. Guess pax made him leave, even though SMF has a really good pax factor and is way better then raw times. Another thing to note, without pax, anyone can car hop or car swap and put down a better time and sway the competition. At least pax will balance times if I hop in the vette or beau's subie, and thus it won't sway team results unfairly.Edit add: i think we all should try it out and can improve on it if it is deemed to not work well. This is to have fun and better then nothing at all. It can be reviewed and changed for next year should the admins decide it should be

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

Kosta is trying to be the leader of a small movement. It's funny though that the largest opponent to pax doesn't even regularly race. I haven't seen him at a autox in years. Guess pax made him leave' date=' even though SMF has a really good pax factor and is way better then raw times.[/quote']I'm not trying to be anything, Joe. Just thought I'd speak up and hopefully convince people that PAX isn't the be-all and end-all like everyone seems to think it is. A wasted effort, though.(For the record, I did run an event last year. Plan to make it to more this year. Weekends have been pretty busy for me the past few years.)In any case, carry on.

[AMGNUTS_Bocar]

TRYING something different for once.

While I find that an impassioned argument may be an effective tool in swaying public opinion, colouring one's argument with debased words reduces its effectiveness.As this is a public forum for the Winnipeg Sports Car Club's members, I would encourage everyone to abstain from using derogatory terms to express his/her views.Peter Gwyn2013 WSCC President

[MRS Joe]

I'm not trying to be anything' date=' Joe. Just thought I'd speak up and hopefully convince people that PAX isn't the be-all and end-all like everyone seems to think it is. A wasted effort, though.(For the record, I did run an event last year. Plan to make it to more this year. Weekends have been pretty busy for me the past few years.)In any case, carry on.[/quote']Kosta, we all know you as passionate behind the keyboard. You managed to attend the one weekend I was gone then :pIm for this team challenge, and since its the first year just want to try it as the admin, who thoroughly thought this over and deliberated on the idea, have decided to. If there are changes decided on, we can push for them next season. Try it before you knock it

[Hard Dog]

Wow! I'm sorry I brought it up. I should have known mentioning the word "PAX" would cause a crap-storm!

[justkickin]

Wow! I'm sorry I brought it up. I should have known mentioning the word "PAX" would cause a crap-storm!

Haha...only for Kosta and welllll, he is Kosta. Wouldn't have it any other way from him. :DAnyway, not much more to say here on the PAX issue. Lets just go have fun. If Kosta can beat me RAW I will buy him a beer and listen to him discuss PAX until at least the bottom of my bottle that arrives at the same time. Yes, every conversation can be tied to alcohol timers. As Kosta said, "carry on". There were some good ideas coming before we got a little side tracked.

[mzf]

I'm not trying to be anything' date=' Joe. Just thought I'd speak up and hopefully convince people that PAX isn't the be-all and end-all like everyone seems to think it is. A wasted effort, though.(For the record, I did run an event last year. Plan to make it to more this year. Weekends have been pretty busy for me the past few years.)In any case, carry on.[/quote']HAHAHA Kosta, thank you! I've posted here maybe 3 times in as many years but as soon as I read this post I felt like I hadn't missed a thing.

[coach]

Wow!, I thought this kinda stuff didn't happen here. First I have seen of it in 3 years.Since none of the new guys have commented here, I think I will.I don't know who Kosta is, and how he can give any kind of opinion on whether pax is needed or not when he has not been to more than a couple events in the last 3 years.In the last 3 years the popularity of Autocross within the TTI community has exploded. All of these new drivers need the pax to compete with the better drivers. I personally do not want to have to spend a bunch of money in order to compete. If all of the new drivers were getting beat all the time, they would not become what I hope they will, "long term autocrossers".The way I see things is; the top guys need us and we need them. The event wouldn't be very much fun if you only had 15 to 20 drivers for each event, thus they need us. On the other hand, some of us hope to join that group by learning from you, thus we need you.Making an entry level sport more "new driver" friendly is only good business. And good business is what will give this Club longevity. Being able to race your daily drive (mods or not) is awesome, and is in the end what will help the club to continue to grow.Their will be no movement......lol. Unless it's in the porta pottie.....

[TRDTurko]

well said coach

[bluesi92]

I'm in.Tim R, Chevrolet, Z06, SS-S, 6Liam R, Chevrolet, Z06, SS-S, 1Dave P, BMW, Alpina B3, DSP-S, 9Kosta F, Civic, Si Turbo, SMF-S, 12Beau M, Subaru, WRX STi, STU, 2Jim A, Subaru, WRX, DS-S, 1Brian T, Mazda, 3, HS-S, 2TrevorB, Ford, Mustang GT,SM, 7Derrick P., Toyota, Corolla, SMF-S, 3Joe P, Toyota, MR2 Spyder, CS-S, 10Jeff J, Honda, S2000, BS-S, 8Peter G, Porsche Cayman S, AS-S, 4Shawn C, Golf R, SM-S, 8Igor Č, Acura Integra GSR, STC, 1 (technically 1/2)Ian W, Infinity Get35, FS-S, 1Bryan S, Toyota, MR2 V6, SSM-S, 3 Nick H, Honda Civic Si, SMF-S, 15+ (not that it shows )

[bluesi92]

Taken from the Team Series Rules..."13. Team members will be separated from the overall results and only scored against those competing in the team championship."Just to be clear...This means the team events do not count toward the club championship for the participating drivers. Correct?

[white_cross]

I would like to be in I just can't make it every time though. (can't race on the 24th of August due to a wedding, and possibly June 9) Though if that is not a problem I would be in, or I could run as a sub for any team who is missing someone. Should I sign up for this even If I can only make it to half the events?

[justkickin]

I would like to be in I just can't make it every time though. (can't race on the 24th of August due to a wedding' date=' and possibly June 9) Though if that is not a problem I would be in, or I could run as a sub for any team who is missing someone. Should I sign up for this even If I can only make it to half the events?[/quote']You could be a sub, but to register and be on a team you should be able to commit to at least three of the events.

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

I don't know who Kosta is' date=' and how he can give any kind of opinion on whether pax is needed or not when he has not been to more than a couple events in the last 3 years.In the last 3 years the popularity of Autocross within the TTI community has exploded. [/quote']I have no idea what the "TTI" community is. But if you call what autocross is today as having "exploded", you have no idea. Try 70+ cars at every event back in the day. I've been doing this since 2001.. I'm well versed in what PAX is, thanks.My point, to reiterate again, is that PAX is fine for the regular championship, which is what the majority of people will be participating in. Why not try the team event with RAW times only if the teams are equally distrubuted? I never said remove PAX from the regular points championship, or to deter new people from the sport. But that seems to have gone over most people's heads. Either way, I'm done trying to argue my point.

[Need my Focusin]

All of these new drivers need the pax to compete with the better drivers. I personally do not want to have to spend a bunch of money in order to compete. If all of the new drivers were getting beat all the time' date=' they would not become what I hope they will, "long term autocrossers".[/quote']I thought PAX was an attempt to handicap the cars and has no bearing on the driver's skill level.

[Curtis]

Tim R, Chevrolet, Z06, SS-S, 6Liam R, Chevrolet, Z06, SS-S, 1Dave P, BMW, Alpina B3, DSP-S, 9Kosta F, Civic, Si Turbo, SMF-S, 12Beau M, Subaru, WRX STi, STU, 2Jim A, Subaru, WRX, DS-S, 1Brian T, Mazda, 3, HS-S, 2TrevorB, Ford, Mustang GT,SM, 7Derrick P., Toyota, Corolla, SMF-S, 3Joe P, Toyota, MR2 Spyder, CS-S, 10Jeff J, Honda, S2000, BS-S, 8Peter G, Porsche Cayman S, AS-S, 4Shawn C, Golf R, SM-S, 8Igor Č, Acura Integra GSR, STC, 1 (technically 1/2)Ian W, Infinity Get35, FS-S, 1Bryan S, Toyota, MR2 V6, SSM-S, 3Nick H, Honda Civic Si, SMF-S, 15+ (not that it shows ) Curtis J, Subaru WRX, DS-S, 7

[justkickin]

^^Thanks Ian, Bryan, Nick and Curtis.

Taken from the Team Series Rules..."13. Team members will be separated from the overall results and only scored against those competing in the team championship."Just to be clear...This means the team events do not count toward the club championship for the participating drivers. Correct?

Nick, no, not really if I am understanding you correctly. Even if you are on a team, your times from that day will be scored in the normal championship as well. However, team participants will be separated out for the team scoring phase. Lets say there are 20 people on teams running that day. These 20 will be part of the normal results on Stykyd and calculated and pointed accordingly among all 40-ish that ran that day. Then, these same 20 will be separated out into a separate file and scored based on the team scoring rules. This way, all those not on teams that ran that day have no impact on the team scoring. Hope that answers it.

[bluesi92]

Thanks Tim. So the points do count towards both the team championship and club championship. Got it.

[Nico]

I thought PAX was an attempt to handicap the cars and has no bearing on the driver's skill level.

Yeah that. That is why Curtis in a Mazda 3 will kick a newbie driving an EVO's butt.

[Need my Focusin]

Yeah that. That is why Curtis in a Mazda 3 will kick a newbie driving an EVO's butt.

OR a real world example Pax is why I in an Ford Focus I came second in SP / MOD behind a S2000 and ahead of an EVO in 2010.

[Shawn]

PAX isn't perfect but it's not evil either and if you are trying to even out the teams by mixing fast,slow,experienced and novice drivers really you are PAXifying the teams in a different way...a way that has very little sampling of data from which to draw conclusions. Perhaps we need to use a different term than PAX so it doesn't ruffle any feathers? Does it sound too much like tax? Shouldn't it be PAF and then everyone will think of AdamWest as batman pinching a bad guy and that's whisked awesome so then everyone will love PAF. And when you beat your buddy on the course you can walk up to him and say PAF! and it will be just like you socked him one in the nose.