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rusoman

How hard is Gimli track to street car

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For background I drive an 04 s2000, never been on track and one year of autocross experience.I'll be doing the upcoming HPDE course this April and planning to do two to three more lapping day this year and lots of autocross.My question are: 1. Do I have to buy a set of brake pads just for track use?2. What brake fluid do you guys usually use?3. How often do you change brake fluid?4. Is it expected to go through a set of tires(200 tread wear rating) in one afternoon?5. Any recommendation to make my car reliable in lapping day?

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First off, you posted this in the Road Race forum... do you intend to use a street car for actual road racing? I don't know how practical that will be, with a cage, fuel cell, cutoff switch, etc, on a licensed street car. Especially since the real road racing often has bumping and grinding going on between cars.But if you're talking about SoloSprint or Hot Laps, I can answer your questions in reference to those events.1. Do I have to buy a set of brake pads just for track use?No, but make sure the pads that you do have have plenty of meat on them. Because they will see lots of wear. Basically, if you're down to the squeaker/noisemaker, change them out before coming to the track. For myself, I can go about one whole season before they need changing; typically in the autumn. (I drive a turbocharged Civic, for reference.)2. What brake fluid do you guys usually use?I use Dot 4, and it has never boiled or faded.3. How often do you change brake fluid?Every couple of years. I do bleed them annually though.4. Is it expected to go through a set of tires(200 tread wear rating) in one afternoon?Depends on how hard you drive, but in general, no. Your right-front will see by far the most wear out of the four, but all the tires will still be usable (even trackable) at future events so long as you rotate them properly. As an example, I've used Azenis for SoloSprint for many years, and each set has lasted a couple of summers. That includes random AutoCross events mixed in.5. Any recommendation to make my car reliable in lapping day?You drive a Honda... it will be pretty reliable as is. The S2000 was pretty much made to be beat on, so I wouldn't really worry about reliability too much. One thing I would recommend, is make sure that you're decent at heel-toe downshifting. Because your clutch will see A LOT of abuse at Gimli.Anothing thing to keep in mind also, is that any damage you might incur in Gimli will come out of your own pocket to repair. MPI does not cover off-road/racing situations.

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Anothing thing to keep in mind also' date=' is that any damage you might incur in Gimli will come out of your own pocket to repair. MPI does not cover off-road/racing situations.[/quote']Generally true, but if there is no timing, and it is driver training, MPI MAY cover an incident. Case by case, so you should go in with the expectation of being able to cove damage.For brake pads, others who have taken s2000s should chime in, but ive heard they can be hard on pads, so there may be some recomendation on a better pad, or having a newish set on.

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I thought there's not much to hit in the track if I lost control aside from the entrance of straightaway and other cars?

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A good start: http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/520674-racing-and-competition-faq/page__pid__11330797#entry11330797Gimli is hard on brakes due to its lower speed. But, the lapping sessions are much shorter than what you'll read about in most forums. Many of the US guys will have 20-30 minute sessions, it's usually just 5 laps at Gimli so you don't generate as much heat. I would bring 4L of oil, extra brake pads, and tools to change brake pads. It sounds like S2000s regularly crack brake rotors at track days, so it may be a good idea to bring spares for the second day onwards. Jeff will chime in, I think he used up a third of a set of race pads in one track day.

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I thought there's not much to hit in the track if I lost control aside from the entrance of straightaway and other cars?

Correct, there isn't much to hit. But there is always still the possibility. Spinning off into the grass fields can sometimes cause damage to front bumpers and airdams too. The fields can be pretty bumpy in places. It's just something to keep in mind.

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I thought there's not much to hit in the track if I lost control aside from the entrance of straightaway and other cars?

Plan for the worst but hope for the best! There are inherent risks with driving fast on any surface. A minor failure at 60 kph becomes very serious at 150 kph. Stuff happens I'm conservative into the braking zone of corner 7/8/9 - I prefer a little bit of room for error in my street car. Same for turn 3, a little earlier on the brakes doesn't hurt your lap time too much. I also leave a couple of extra feet on the exit of 8 - that Armco/tire wall isn't too far away from the racing line. I'll give up a half-second there and still sleep well that night. An old saying: You can't win at a track day, but you sure can lose!

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@corey what brake pads do you use on your s2000? I remember you said you don't like Hawk HPS, why?

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For background I drive an 04 s2000' date=' never been on track and one year of autocross experience.I'll be doing the upcoming HPDE course this April and planning to do two to three more lapping day this year and lots of autocross.My question are: 1. Do I have to buy a set of brake pads just for track use?2. What brake fluid do you guys usually use?3. How often do you change brake fluid?4. Is it expected to go through a set of tires(200 tread wear rating) in one afternoon?5. Any recommendation to make my car reliable in lapping day?[/quote']1. Start with a newish set of what you currently use see how they run. Upgrading is always a good idea but not mandatory. Many people time attack with stock brakes or simply upgraded pads. Proper use of cool down laps will help lengthen the service life of your brakes.2. For our short lapping sessions on a middle to low aggressive pad, DOT 3 will suffice if that is what you run. From what I've seen, you'll run into glazing and brake fade before enough heat is generated to boil fluid. As always, upgrading to dot4 is recommended on all accounts.3. Annually is recommended for a often tracked car, but if it isn't discoloured, generally it will be fine. As others have noted, regular bleeding is good practice.4. This depends on your driving. I can abolish a new set of Azenis on my road race civic in 15laps. But I'm not driving with conservation in mind among other factors that affect tire wear. I would say if you are driving 8/10ths as you should max to if its your street car, a set of 200 treadwear tires should last a whole season of Gimli lapping.5. Refreshed driver! Most important. If you are thinking of something else or tired and don't keep your head in the game, that's when stuff breaks. Other than that, oil changes after every other event or every event if it becomes really dirty, top up your fluids before each event and keep up on consumables and wearables (bushings, struts etc)Most of the answers to your questions depend on your car setup (suspension or otherwise), driving skill and style. Try it and you'll figure it out quite quickly what you need to upgrade.

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Pay careful attention to the link I posted. It's dangerous to assume that because a Civic is fine with stock brakes that your car will be too. Every car has its weak points that others have figured out. For the S2000 on track, it's brakes. They are quite small for the weight and power of the car, get very hot, pads wear fast, and rotors crack regularly when tracked hard. You won't be using the brakes super aggressively in a school or your first few track days, so you might get away with a street pad. If you ever notice the brakes aren't working like they did last lap, slow down immediately and do a whole lap without braking to let them cool off. No braking = very little throttle!

@corey what brake pads do you use on your s2000? I remember you said you don't like Hawk HPS' date=' why?[/quote']HUGE disclaimer: The only laps I've done at Gimli in my S2000 were at a school where there was slush on the track. It was comically slippery! I ran Axxis ULX pads - ok. I'm now on Stoptech Street Performance pads - a nice step up but they need to be worked hard every now and then in street driving or they'll get an uneven pad deposit layer on the rotor and make the pedal pulsate. They might work for a first track day - I couldn't fade them while breaking them in. I think I did eight 100 kph to 10 kph stops in quick succession and they still were working. Impressive. Most regard Hawk HPS as adequate replacement pads for light street use. Word around the S2000 world is that they don't stop as well as and fade way before even the stock Honda pads. The HP+ is more tolerant of heat but it can squeal on the street/autocross.I didn't stress something important: check your oil level every time before you go back on track. S2000s can burn a lot of oil - this is cheap insurance. I'm being overly serious on this because tracking has dire/expensive consequences if something goes wrong. A little research and some simple preventative measures will make it easy and safe. That makes a very fun event even more fun!

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1. Hawk blues. You'll pay 175$ bit just for lapping proposes they will last you a few seasons.I have a pretty much stock 89si and I've cooked brand new oem replacments in like 20 laps. 2. Prestone "FORD" brake fluid. Its a dot 3 but dot numbers aren't what you're looking for, its all about the temp and this stuff is 500° 3. I usually do it before the first lapping day and I'm good for the summer. 4. I've had these 70$ cooper zeons for two summers now going on my 3rd. They've been great. If I had a recommendation I'd say the falken azenis. 5. Like already mentioned, you drive a Honda.

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2. Prestone "FORD" brake fluid. Its a dot 3 but dot numbers aren't what you're looking for' date=' its all about the temp and this stuff is 500° [/quote'] Be careful! I think that fluid is synthetic and if so, is absolutely NOT compatible with brake systems that are not built for it. Some of our racers (and other street enthusiasts) have been there regretted it!. There are many fluids out there that are vehicle or manufacturer specific. "Dextron II Chrysler" ATF for example, Honda only synthetic PSF for another. As far as upgrades are concerned, the school will let you know what you need. It is not necessary to run out and drop a pile of money on something right away. Yes brake pads/rotors/fluid are important and should be upgraded. Yes, a good set of tires will be better...are these required for the school? No. Lapping days? See what driving at the school tells you! As you get better at driving, then upgrade. Hawk Blue pads are great but need a decent amount of heat to get them to bite well. In colder mornings, you may notice an inconsistent bite or perhaps even no bite at all. They also eat rotors quickly if you are constantly hard braking. I'm not saying you can't street those pads but there are better options for this. For a street pad that can be used on the track, i've had good success with EBC Yellows. The bite well on cold days (even at -30) and take high heat well. The time attack director races her car(s) with these pads (and dot 3 fluid) and all vehicles have excellent braking qualities on a full weight street car on street or lapping days. Yes, the yellows aren't a full race pad and no, they aren't as aggressive as the blues but that is entirely my point.

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Be careful! I think that fluid is synthetic and if so' date=' is absolutely NOT compatible with brake systems that are not built for it. Some of our racers (and other street enthusiasts) have been there regretted it!. There are many fluids out there that are vehicle or manufacturer specific. "Dextron II Chrysler" ATF for example, Honda only synthetic PSF for another. As far as upgrades are concerned, the school will let you know what you need. It is not necessary to run out and drop a pile of money on something right away. Yes brake pads/rotors/fluid are important and should be upgraded. Yes, a good set of tires will be better...are these required for the school? No. Lapping days? See what driving at the school tells you! As you get better at driving, then upgrade. Hawk Blue pads are great but need a decent amount of heat to get them to bite well. In colder mornings, you may notice an inconsistent bite or perhaps even no bite at all. They also eat rotors quickly if you are constantly hard braking. I'm not saying you can't street those pads but there are better options for this. For a street pad that can be used on the track, i've had good success with EBC Yellows. The bite well on cold days (even at -30) and take high heat well. The time attack director races her car(s) with these pads (and dot 3 fluid) and all vehicles have excellent braking qualities on a full weight street car on street or lapping days. Yes, the yellows aren't a full race pad and no, they aren't as aggressive as the blues but that is entirely my point.[/quote']The Ford brake fluid was developed because Lincoln (AKA Old guys) owners were dragging their brakes and cooking the fluid. It's not synthetic, just high temp.

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Brake pads are the biggest thing you'll have to watch. I bought a set of Hawk HT-10 race pads (a step up from Hawk Blues) specifically for tracking last year and chewed through 75% of the front pads in one day (~50 laps). My mistake was thinking that race pads could stand up to 15-lap sessions. Now I know that to do that with an S2000 at Gimli, you need race pads AND brake ducts, at the very least, so limit yourself to shorter sessions. Street pads should give you fair warning when you're overheating them, so slow down immediately when that happens and you should be fine. Check your pads halfway through the day just for peace of mind.Also make sure your oil filter is torqued properly (7/8-turn after contact). Take note of its orientation every time you check your oil, because a handful of guys have had them back off during track use (sustained high RPM = more vibration). That would spoil your day pretty quickly.

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Yes. Synthetic is fine it sillicone based you do NOT want to use. And I should of mentioned I only swap the hawk blues in at the track. I run oem replacments other than that. Fast easy swap at the track.

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I did 1 lapping day in a 2005 S2000 a long time ago, the car was only a year old at the time so everything, pads,tires, etc were almost brand new (stock pads, stock Bridgestones). I didn't drive all-out, braked early, etc. Front right tire took the worst abuse, but all tires still had decent tread left. I did notice fade from the stock brakes, but when I did, I backed off and always made use of the cool down lap. Didn't really notice a lot of wear on the pads, but I only did 15-20 laps (3-4 sessions). Oil level went down a bit, maybe 1/2 a liter at most.I used the stoptech pads that Corey is using on a E46 M3, they worked really well at the track, never had any fade... but after awhile of not being driven aggressively, they became noisy on the street.I did have an issue with tires on the E46, brand new Hankook V12 literally fell apart, especially on the right side. However, the combination of a heavy car + aggressive driving + cheap tire could've been the cause of this and this may not happen to you.

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That's pretty much what my coppers look like lol. As they have worn down over the past season they have just gotten better and better. I'm actually quite surprised at the overall performance of the tires for being so cheap, as on lapping days ill do 50-100 laps depending on how much my body allows it. Starts to hurt the back after a while with stock Si seats. The harness helps a bit but ya.

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BrakesI've used Prestone Ford 500deg brake fluid for 20 years and Zero problems .Price for a 500 ml bottle of Ford fluid is 8 to 10 dollars at CT or PS. Cheap.I used silicon race fluid once. Never again. It was not compatible with an 88 civic and probly still isn't in certain cars .It felt like I needed to rebleed the system again (felt like air was in the system) and I reblead 4 times then finally gave up flushing out the silicon to Ford and never looked back. Not saying it's not good stuff either just do a bit of research before blowing 20 bucks or more on silicon racing fluid.Combined with a set of higher quality track/racing pads that should be enough.I personally use Hawk Blues for the track only and $20 white box rotors.Slotted and or drilled rotors wear out faster than a regular vented rotor each crossed drilled hole or slot is the perfect place for a crack to start. Not saying these are no good either because they are good just cost more someone has to drill and slot or a machine needs programming and not nessesary on all cars. If you street drive the Blues they are so hard all they do is machine the rotor away. I wore out a set of rotors in one summer just on the street and the pads were still almost full thickness.Most race/performance pads squeal like a piggy on the street and is a bit embarrasing when you pull up to a stop squealing. Quite loud. Swapping out the pads is a good idea or not. You can figure that out. The pads need heating up first and the hotter the better the bite.On the track with some heat in the Blues the pad material melts away not crumble like a standard pad thus rotor wear is minimal on the track.On top of the dry track season used the rotors on my Ice racer for the full ice season with stock pads instead of Blues and the rotors are still full thickness. The rotors are now hardened from road racing. Some tiny little cracks are visible and will be replaced for the 2013 dry season.Free heat treating. Lol. Tires.In a FWD the right front tire will wear the most.RWD both right side tires will wear.AWD both right side tires will wear. This all depends how hard you drive your car .Keep an eye on your tires every time you pit check your tires.Rotating your tires is the best way to go home with all 4 tires on the car and not one in the trunk.But what if my tires are directional? Rotate them anyway. Or go home with one possibly or two destroyed tires. OR bring a spare or two if this makes you uneasy.We will have tools and time to rotate tires.Lots of guys race with tires going the wrong direction. Been there done that and won many races with tires going the wrong direction. The tire won't fall apart I guarantee it. You won't notice the difference except in the rain . If it's raining you won't need to rotate. No tire wear. Al

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BrakesI use hp+ with plain rotors. Had powerslots, but they cracked after two events(parts source even warrantied them, and then they cracked again). The hp+ have a good bite even with a single piston brake system, they get hot. And I would get brake fade. So I fabbed up brake ducts and no more fade. The hp+ are meant for street and track. They would get noisy on the street a few days after the track.TiresYes the right front tire would wear pretty hard. I would air them down a bit and when they heat up they would expand to normal pressure. They would have good bite throughout the session and wear less. Always would check the pressure and tire wear as soon as I pitted in. Then air them back up to leave and when I get home, rotate them.WheelRemove all center caps. The heat from your brake and tires would distort the plastic cap and fly off. I lost two of them.

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For background I drive an 04 s2000' date=' never been on track and one year of autocross experience.I'll be doing the upcoming HPDE course this April and planning to do two to three more lapping day this year and lots of autocross.My question are: 1. Do I have to buy a set of brake pads just for track use?2. What brake fluid do you guys usually use?3. How often do you change brake fluid?4. Is it expected to go through a set of tires(200 tread wear rating) in one afternoon?5. Any recommendation to make my car reliable in lapping day?[/quote']I'm not sure that the OP is still even reading this thread but here's my input (I've done lapping days exclusively for a couple of years in my s2000):Get brake pads. If you can live with swapping them at the track, then get race pads. In my experience anything that claims to be a street + track pad is bad at both. Personally I just leave my race pads on, and live with it on the street. They squeek like crazy but it doesn't really bother me.Fluid: like others have said, get the high temp stuff. I don't think OEM is good enough. I use some blue german stuff that Phil @ FTP (fast toys) sold me years ago. I've just kept on using it, since it's never failed me. It's not expensive.Flushing: I've never changed my fluid, I just bleed it frequently. Usually before every track day. I think that I lose enough in bleeding that it probably works out to a flush every year. I change my engine oil before every track day, and transmission oil twice a year. Different people suggest different things.Tires: I have Hankook RS-3's and have used them for 2 years. I think I'll get another year out of them. That being said, I have a lot of negative camber and have a camber kit up front to achieve it. I believe it's around -3.7 degrees all around. I could actually use a bit more based on tire wear, but I'd need to get a kit for the rear as it's maxed out back there. The RS3 has a relatively soft side-wall though, so with a firmer tire you may get different results. Also, my I'm running 255 width all around. I think this probably makes a big difference on my front right tire. That's the corner to watch at Gimli.Reliability: Biggest thing is to watch your fluid levels, and like Jeff said - make sure that oil filter is tight. I usually check it between every session. There is a kit you can get which prevents it from vibrating all the way off. Adding it to my car is on my to-do list.If you ever have your motor out for some reason, get a baffle welded into your oil pan. You can buy them for about ~$50 from vendors on S2Ki or ebay. A local guy (and club member) welded it in for me. Jason Bettess, he did a great job.Keep an eye on your upper control arm mounts. On some years the spot welds let go where the plate meets the frame of the car. I rewelded mine as a precaution. Though they had no signs of starting to let go. It's a very easy fix, and it's worth it for the peace of mind.Make sure you do a good cooldown lap before you pull in. Our rotors are known to crack after a hard session. Mine have never cracked. I also made a brake duct kit for the front. There are tons of guides for this on S2Ki.I'm a pretty tall guy, I installed an SCCA approved rollbar which also means I removed all of my interior. Most people aren't willing to do that (and understandably so) but I bought this car to be primarily a track car. I'll gladly sacrifice comfort for performance + safety any day.I looooooooooooooooovvvvve this car. I can't help but smile every time I go lapping in it. Corey and Jeff both have way more seat time in their s2000's than I do. They're both great resources.

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