Improvements to Solo

[84TurboSupra]

Hello everyone, my name is Sarah Wach and I have volunteered to be the new Time Attack (Solo Sprint) director for this year. Our first event of the season seems to have been successful, though we had a small turnout. Does anyone have any suggestions to improve the solo event? What would make you turn out more often? What issues do you have?Thanks

[Corey]

Thanks for volunteering Sarah! More laps for the money. Or less money for the same # of laps. I don't really care about official times, so I'll just go to the Friday lapping days instead. However, I'm a very casual participant at Gimli so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Even if you promised 100 laps for $20, I still may not show up for other reasons.

[Need my Focusin]

I didn't have an issue with the value for solosprint. It cannot compete with the Friday lapping days for cost per time on track but it is better than autocross for value (I started as an autocrossist so that calculation was important to me personally)Autocross gives you about 5 dollars per minute of fun ($20 entrance fee, 4 laps, 1 minute laps)Solosprint gives you about 4.10 dollars per minute of fun ($100 entrance fee, $80 for gas (I went through a tank at track plus some to get to Gimli and back, 40 laps (8 sessions of 5 laps), 1 minute 10 per lap (not that I ever went that fast))The outlay is greater but the return is acceptable.I most likely won't compete this year because I am tired of running my Focus and my replacement is not yet track worthy.

[Neunlfr]

Thanks for taking on the director's spot, Sarah.I'd have to agree (even though last weekend was my first time) that the bang-for-buck factor at 'Time Attack' is pretty good. I've gone through 100 clams a lot faster than that before, and not ended up with half the giggles. Then again, a nice casino at the track might draw a few more people...Anyhow, I wouldn't get too worried about the turnout on the first day of the season (which didn't have the greatest weather, either)...I'm sure it'll pick up.

[apex]

I'm afraid I'm with Corey. Cost is a big factor. I'd rather spend the $60-$100 on the Friday and forget about Saturday. I love the time-attack events, but they're going to lose out everytime if I have to make a decision on which day to go out. June 15-16 for instance, I was debating whether or not to go both days. Taylor, you're leaving out cost to replace tires, brake pads, rotors, and additional oil changes. Things that gets used up much faster at gimli than during a season of AutoX.

[Need my Focusin]

Taylor' date=' you're leaving out cost to replace tires, brake pads, rotors, and additional oil changes. Things that gets used up much faster at gimli than during a season of AutoX.[/quote']I left maintance items out because I believe it to be a wash. Wearable parts wear out just as quickly at 10 / 10ths driving wheather it is autocross or time attack. There is just way more opportunity at time attack to use them up.I thought of it as a positive rather than a negative. If in the month an half of summer we get in Manitoba I can burn through a set of tires, brake pads, brake fluid (I've still on my original rotors), tranny fluid, etc... it was a good month and a half

[chkdsk]

Hello everyone' date=' my name is Sarah Wach and I have volunteered to be the new Time Attack (Solo Sprint) director for this year. [/quote']Congrats Sarah! Although I am not in Solo (Time Attack) we do appreciate you stepping up and taking the challenge. Thank you very much.

[Carlos1]

Thanks again Sarah for stepping-up and taking the leadership role. And thank you for being open to ideas and advocating on our behalf.Unfortunately, I don’t have any suggestions; people who are smarter and been around longer than I can pipe-up. I like things pretty much the way they are right now.As for the Friday versus Saturday issue: for me personally, I enjoy the slight difference that ‘racing’ on Saturday has versus a Friday ‘hot laps’ day. For sure the Friday event is less committal (if one has commitment issues ), and you will be able to lap to your heart’s content – no doubt putting in a season’s worth of solo in one afternoon. For some, that’s exactly what they need.However, being track-side enjoying the door-to-door racing, having your own on-track prowess being timed and posted, and then the camaraderie that builds between a consistent group of people that come out on race weekends are key differences for me. I’m not sure you’d get that at the Friday events.And FWIW, the nature of my job precludes me from the Friday events anyways. I suspect that may also be true for other M-F employees.Perhaps, this event might just be like many other groups in life: people come and people go. Sometimes there are more people, sometimes less. As long we are welcome there, I’m happy to come out.My $0.02

[nopistons]

I would say that the test and tune days (Fridays) are good value for money, but you stand a really good chance of being the only car on the track and doing 5-10min runs. It's good for practice, but in my mind, Friday's aren't what is being asked here. Time attack is about going "racing" without actually footing the bill and jumping in with both feet on a race car and big dollar safety gear. Time attack is about you and beating your overall best time. it's for those gear heads that want to do improvements to their skills or machines and get them just one second faster in a lap, take the corners at 2 mph higher speeds and go 10mph faster in the straits than before...a measurement of ourselves...ego boosting. Fridays don't offer this but only a butt dyno to tell you how you are improving your skill, or car. Some may say it's not all about that but their eagerness to check their times, says otherwise to me. I'm as guilty as anyone else, maybe even more so. As a road racer, i cannot comment on cost as my $275 for one full weekend is the best bang for the buck for my sense of thrills. Would i like it cheaper? sure. But c'mon people. Let’s be realistic. Timed racing for $100? really? you can't really find it cheaper. I'm sure autocross (cheaper as stated) is similar in experiences. I've tried it and it's not my cup of tea. For me, the real adrenaline rush is corners at high speed, 100+ mph in the straights. A lot of people would pay $100 to do 5 min of 100+ mph on the highway. Track time on Saturday's seems a better deal! Want more bang for your $100? Bring your friends and get enough traffic run double sessions between each event. Maybe ending the schedule a little later to accommodate additional runs? Longer runs? I think this past weekend was about 15min runs. That ain't bad! I doubt the cost will get cheaper, so I think the question is really - What can be done to increase "your value for $$$" and satisfaction at the time attack events? Just my $0.01

[Jim Eh.]

A lot of people would pay $100 to do 5 min of 100+ mph on the highway.

160K on the highway could cost you more than a C note, waaay more!

[84TurboSupra]

It seems like cost is the deciding factor for most people. I don't think the entry fees will be changing and I think that $100 for a day of timed racing is reasonable. The consumption of tires, brakes and fuel is the cost of doing business in this sport. The Ontario Time Attack series charges between $180 and $275 for one day of racing. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to increase the value per race? Increase the amount of track time? Go back to the schedule that was used in the final race last year where solo ran between open wheel and closed wheel races?

[justkickin]

First let me say thanks for volunteering Sarah. Yes, other clubs pay more, and $100 registration is really inexpensive for a day at the track. Nobody in their right mind can argue against that. However, from my perspective, my consumables are $250-500/day at the track. Not an insignificant amount any way you cut it. At autox, I can spend that in a year on maintenance. But that is not my point. At autox, I am competing, not just getting a time. Yeah, I get paxed to death by Civics, but I am still competing. At Solo, the only currently added value is times. I only go to the drag strip once per car I own (regardless of number of years I own the car). As Time Attack is currently setup, it is a lot like drag racing to me. All I get is a time slip. Not much value there. Yeah, I could go get classed etc and compete in drag racing, but it isn't my thing, I prefer going left and right. However, if Time Attack involved some level of competition (beyond competing against myself), now that would be added value. The adrenaline rush of 160+ down the front straight is awesome, but at pretty much $50 per corner entry (a bit of an exaggeration I know), the adrenaline rush just is not worth that much to me when competing against myself only. There are other ways I can challenge myself for far less money than solo, and get the same, or similar, adrenaline rush (mountain biking comes to mind). Now, if I was competing, in some sort of class structure that ups the adrenaline and value level to a point which would allow me to tolerate more risk (things break at the track which increases the cost), then solo becomes a more attractive option. Without competing against others, I will take the one time slip per year, and do hot laps at 8/10ths and save my pocket book for the rest of the year. How do you get more people to come out so that there is some level of competition? That question I do not have the answer for. Will a class structure and competition do it? Maybe. I don't know.The main difference I see between Winnipeg and areas like Toronto and other large cities with successful Time Attack programs is that they have more than one track to play at, which adds variability to the competition. How do we keep the competition level up, with only one track? Again, I do not have the answer.If you haven't already, one region you may want to talk to is Edmonton. They appear to have a number of clubs using the Stratotech facility for Time Attack and they seem to have a few entrants. I am not exactly sure what they do differently, if anything. Will I be out this year. Sure, at least once. But not until after the Level 1 autox school as I cannot risk breaking the car before then for various reasons. Not the least of which would be my son and wife would kill me for breaking the car before he did the school.Good luck, and will see you at the track this summer.

[nopistons]

May i ask how it is that you come up with $250 to $500 per event for "consumables"?You can't possibly be going through a set of tires or brakes in one single event!

[Need my Focusin]

Does anyone have any suggestions about how to increase the value per race? Increase the amount of track time? Go back to the schedule that was used in the final race last year where solo ran between open wheel and closed wheel races?

All of the feedback I got last year about the schedule was good.I cannot comment about other provinces and don't really see the relevancy as we are not going to attract those people to our events and this is a different market (maybe give out coupons). You may want to reach out to the organizers and find out what they did / are doing to grow the sport.Most of the people who had been coming out were people who are stepping into racing from autocross and I think that is where most efforts to get more poeple should be focused.The factor that I felt matters the most is cost, even if you can offer the same value (which 8 sessions does). The autocrossers are used to spend 20 per event. Two solosprints will pay for the entire autocross season.I believe that you are coming from the other direction (down from road racing) so you are used to a big budget (heck you are used to having dedicated track toy cars) it is a different mind set.If you can keep the value up and try and find a way to promote the time attacks to autocrossers you will be ok.If there is interest you could also look at a season and points and prizes. There may be some value in that...

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

Personally, I don't think anybody should be complaning about cost. $100 for a day of racing, including a transponder rental is reasonable.In the first year of Solo, however many years back when JT was the director and only a few of us were running, we were paying $50 dollars for the rental of the transponder alone! $50! Plus the $100 racing fee!Racing big cars around a big track is an expensive hobby. Nobody ever said it was going to be cheap. This crowd spends thousands on tires, wheels, and whatever go-fast & handling parts per year... but $100 is suddenly a limiting factor? I don't buy that hypocritical crap. What ELSE are you buying all that stuff for? What's a better way to prove how effective it all is?Especially considering that there are only what, 4 Solo events per year? Cost should be a non-issue.

[Beau]

I'm an autocrosser who uses his daily driver for weekend racing. I will be trying SoloSprint this year, but won't be committing myself to that sport like I do to AX. I can hopefully speak for most of the people who are in a similar situation. Please don't take the following points as criticisms of the SoloSprint sport, I'm just offering an honest opinion of why it is impossible to bring all the AX'ers over to Solo.Here's why AX is better suited to people with a DD / weekend racer: - barrier to entry is lower - just show up and race vs needing a school, don't need to worry as much about fluids, brakes or tires, etc. - cost is lower for someone who just wants to "try" one or two events. Not just entry fee but also cost for consumables (already mentioned by others) - location is more convenient - the PAX system means any car can be competitive, even stock cars (if you're really into competition) - there is more competition in AX and more opportunities to learn from experienced drivers, while also finding other guys at your level (e.g. there were 5 or 10 rookies last year who all learned and grew together, so even though we weren't competitive with the top drivers at all, we were competitive amongst ourselves) - and the #1 reason: the risk of seriously damaging your car or self is much, much lower in AX. This is so important for a double duty car.A corollary to the last point is that you can push your car to its limits and beyond in AX, fairly safely. In Gimli if you go off track at the wrong spot it's very dangerous. That means I'll be driving at 90% of the limit for portions of GMP vs. trying to push at 100% for the entire AX course. As a novice racer who wants to "explore" my limits and my car's limits, there's simply no way you can offer something like that at GMP.Alright, so after all of that is said, my main point is that Solo and AX are not the same sport and will attract slightly different people. Because of the inherent differences, AX is more inviting and easier to get into for a casual enthusiast, so you'll never be able to get all AX'ers out to do Solo. Don't bother trying. IMO, SoloSprint is somewhat of a "next step" for many folks. My advice would be to focus on making people want to take that "next step".

[Beau]

Okay so how do you make people interested in making the next step? Firstly, is that really what you want to do - draw in more first timers? Maybe getting new people to try the sport isn't the problem - maybe what you really want to do is keep the casual racers coming back for more. In that case, creating a league with points and trophies might be a good idea.I'm going to assume that you want to increase the number of new people like me, coming over from AX. In that case, here are the advantages of Solo over AX, as I see them: - higher speeds! Using more than 2 gears! - longer corners with sustained G forces, not just quick transitions. - entry, apex, and exit points on each corner - other cars on track - this is exciting! - closer to "real" racing, not just cones in a parking lot - more practice with racing techniques such as downshifting, heel-toe, trail braking, etc. Although these techniques are used by the top AX racers, they are not necessary for AX and you don't get a lot of practice even if you do use them (some guys just leave their cars in 2nd for the entire race). At GMP you need to learn these skills and you get lots of time to practice them. - You need to learn the track if you want to compete in Road Race.There are probably other advantages, too. Since I haven't even competed in Solo yet, those are just what I see as attractive to me.

[justkickin]

May i ask how it is that you come up with $250 to $500 per event for "consumables"?You can't possibly be going through a set of tires or brakes in one single event!

Full brake redo on my car, pads and rotors is $500+ Many guys that run Vettes say 1-2 days on pads and they do nowhere near the laps our solo offers. Factor in an oil change after each event at $125 per change. My car runs 210F on the street, I can only imagine what it will hit on a sunny day at GMP. The only way around that is an oil cooler which is not stock legal for autox. It adds up fast and I don't have bottomless pockets. If I could afford the maintenance I would be there all the time. My Vette is not my DD so that doesn't factor in for me. To be clear, it isn't the entry fee that is the barrier, I would pay $150-200 for a track day.

[Nico]

Most of the people who had been coming out were people who are stepping into racing from autocross and I think that is where most efforts to get more poeple should be focused....The factor that I felt matters the most is cost' date=' even if you can offer the same value (which 8 sessions does). The autocrossers are used to spend 20 per event. Two solosprints will pay for the entire autocross season....If you can keep the value up and try and find a way to promote the time attacks to autocrossers you will be ok.[/quote']I agree with this. I enjoyed racing on the track, $100 per session just 'sounds' a lot when coming from AutoX though (although it's reasonable as people has said).

[Jeff]

My $0.02 (might be worth less, since I haven't actually tried Solosprint):For those of us who are already interested in track days and accept the cost of consumables, you're still competing against the value of Friday Hot Laps. Here are the advantages of Hot Laps, as I see them:1) INSURANCE. MPI covers you if you crash your car at a non-timed event.2) I can take Friday afternoon off and do more laps in 3 hours than if I spent my whole Saturday at Solosprint.3) I spend $60 instead of $100 (not a big deal compared to consumables, but $40 is $40).4) If I spend $100, I can get WAY more laps in.5) I run when I want: I can do 20-lap sessions if my car can handle it, or I can do 2-lap sessions without feeling like I'm wasting the laps that count.6) GPS lap timers for smartphones are abundant, so you can time your laps anyway.7) I can take my convertible there without adding an ugly roll bar.What's the differentiator for Solosprint? It has to be competition. If you can find a way to create real, fair competition that lasts a whole championship season, I think you would get more repeat customers and more conversions from Hot Lappers to Solosprinters.In Road Racing and Autocross, a well-maintained classing system is what keeps the competition fair and exciting. We don't have that in Solosprint, so you're still just competing against yourself or, if you're lucky, one other driver who happens to be running similar times to you. Might as well just stick to Hot Laps.

[84TurboSupra]

Well, I can try and figure out some sort of competition system. Classing doesn't work really well when every car is in a different class. Civics competing against Corvettes isn't really a competition. If we had lots of cars it might work. Otherwise it becomes everybody gets a prize day, which isn't the point.

[Need my Focusin]

I was thinking that in solo sprint you could compete by seeing who has improved the most.

[Miss_Behavin]

Well' date=' I can try and figure out some sort of competition system. Classing doesn't work really well when every car is in a different class. Civics competing against Corvettes isn't really a competition. If we had lots of cars it might work. Otherwise it becomes everybody gets a prize day, which isn't the point.[/quote']All cars could compete with each other if you can determine a "PAX" factor - like in autoslalom. It certainly isn't perfect but it works. Looks like the Calgary Sports Car Club does this. Just google "time attack pax calgary" and you will find links to their forum discussion. I am sure you could just contact their director for the info

[84TurboSupra]

The PAX factor seems like it might be a good solution. I will look into it.

[Nico]

It would be fun if there was something like PAX times for Solo Sprint.EDIT: sorry , thought Jeff's post on the previous page was the last post, I saw PAX was mentioned.

[Carlos1]

Hey wait a minute. I thought we were going with the 'everybody gets a prize' idea. As a civic driver, I love it! Let's get back to that. (JJ)Pax could be interesting."1) INSURANCE. MPI covers you if you crash your car at a non-timed event."I've heard that there is a grey area here (actually, it's not that grey) with respect to drivers timing themselves using their own in-car timers, or even video recording equipment. Apparently, using those technologies could be construed (sp?) as timing and thus competition. I suppose you'd just make sure that it doesn't 'come up' in conversation if you do crash. (And I hope you don't crash.)

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

PAX is stupid in autocross, and it would be even more stupid in solosprint. Time Attack would then become PAX Attack - Lap Times By Committee.Garbage.

[lotiguy]

PAX is stupid in autocross' date=' and it would be even more stupid in solosprint. Time Attack would then become PAX Attack - Lap Times By Committee.Garbage.[/quote']I get the feeling Your not a PAX fan.

[Brian_Earl_Spilner]

I get the feeling Your not a PAX fan.

Never was' date=' never will be.P.S. you're

[Miss_Behavin]

PAX is stupid in autocross' date=' and it would be even more stupid in solosprint. Time Attack would then become PAX Attack - Lap Times By Committee.Garbage.[/quote']Productive comments, positive as usual. Thanks for sharing. *eyeroll