2020 TA Tire Rule changes?

[beppca]

I was just running my car through the CASC ONTARIO TIME ATTACK site and see there are some new rules - Tire UTQG ratings - 250 seems to be the cut off now. Anything under 180 comes with some PIPs unless exempt?

5.1.A2 Other Modifications - Tires     Rule Description PIPs Select Modification Notes 1 Installation of four street tires with a tread wear rating (UTQG) of 250 or greater. (“Enduro Tires”) -5.0     2 Installation of four “street tires” with a tread wear rating (UTQG) of 180 to 249, as well as GG compound Toyo brand tires, R888, R888R and RA-1, and Nitto NT01, but excluding Kumho Ecsta V720 ACR, which are classified as non-premium R compound tires, notwithstanding their UTQG rating (see rule 4.8.2.4) 0.0     3 Installation of “non-premium” R compound tires, defined as DOT Legal competition tires that have a moulded tread pattern with non-circumferential siping, including Kumho Ecsta V720 ACR. 5.0     4 Installation of “premium” race compound tires defined as tires that only have circumferential moulded grooves but also includes Continental Canadian Touring Car Championship (CTCC) Hoosier Grand AM Cup, foreign market Yokohama A048R and full wet weather race tires. 10.0     5 Installation of four Race Slicks 15.0

Edited May 4, 2020 by beppca

[donrolandofurioso]

I assume that we continue this year with our agreement that the AR-1 is equivalent of the R888 and NT01. However; Brad's question brings up an interesting point: since this arrangement is valid within our club only, what will happen during the Western Championship in the fall? Will everybody using the AR-1 have to take 5 PIPs? Or are we telling potential competitors from the West that they will have to accept our club-internal arrangement? And how will that affect any possible protests from a competitor who does not agree that the AR-1 is equivalent to the Toyos and the Nitto?

Any thoughts from Ian and/or our stewards?

Edited May 4, 2020 by donrolandofurioso

[mcorrie]

Also interesting is the Corvette, Camaro’s and Mustang Handling Index increased

not my Camaro - just the fast ones 

From OTA forum:

”The biggest change is in our tire rules. The definition of a "street" tire rated at zero PIPs is now for a treadwear UTQG rating of 180 to 249 up from 140 and over last year. Again the Toyo R888, R888R and Nitto NT01 tires classify as "street" tires despite their UTQG rating of 100.

We are also introducing a new class of tires (as yet unnamed) with UTQG ratings of 250 and up which will actually classify as negative 5 PIPs or 1 class.

Next year will be a 6 competition event season with the best 5 out of 6 events scored. There will be no double points event. The schedule will follow shortly.

A few cars will have their classification adjusted as follow.

The handling index for the 2015 and newer Mustang GTs will increase by 5 HI

The handling index for the 2010-2013 Grand Sport Corvette will increase by 5 HI

The handling index for the 2017 and newer Camaro SS 1IE and Camaro ZL1 will increase by 10 HI

Edited May 4, 2020 by mcorrie

[Ianfromduff]

On 5/3/2020 at 9:43 PM, donrolandofurioso said:

I assume that we continue this year with our agreement that the AR-1 is equivalent of the R888 and NT01. However; Brad's question brings up an interesting point: since this arrangement is valid within our club only, what will happen during the Western Championship in the fall? Will everybody using the AR-1 have to take 5 PIPs? Or are we telling potential competitors from the West that they will have to accept our club-internal arrangement? And how will that affect any possible protests from a competitor who does not agree that the AR-1 is equivalent to the Toyos and the Nitto?

Any thoughts from Ian and/or our stewards?

Yes as long as the toyo r88r are exempt so will ar1s. The tires test pretty much identical and last time I checked toyo isnt giving us any money. 

 

The western championship is held with our supplimentrary rules so anyone who competes will be required to do so under our rulebook. 

 

[donrolandofurioso]

I like that!

 

[mcorrie]

FYI
 

http://speed.academy/100-tread-wear-track-tire-review-nankang-ar1-maxxis-rc1-toyo-r888r/

“In the end, the Nankang AR-1 came out on top in terms of lap times and its advantage over the Maxxis RC-1 and Toyo R888R was clearly in the braking zones and into the first half of the corners. The Nankang AR-1 also had the most neutral handling balance from turn-in to the apex followed by gradual and predictable breakaway characteristics as it transitioned towards oversteer balance on corner exit.”

[Dnfwm]

...

Edited June 3, 2020 by Dnfwm

[donrolandofurioso]

You understood right. Stock does not mean you get to bypass the rules.There are cars that come from factory on with even more aggressive tires than yours; that does not mean that they can line up against some inferior tires and claim innocence just because that is the way the car came. You are free to put on AR1, R888 or NT01 and see whether you get faster, or even keep the same lap times- I personally doubt it, as your Supercar 3R is a race-ready tire (and is famous for behaving more like a UTQG 80 tire). Rules are for everybody to adhere to, and you are not the only one who gets caught by surprise with this rule change. As you notice, there are not only tire rule changes; there are also Handling index changes,. And the rule changes do not just affect the Camaro.

That means everybody needs to go into the classifications on casc.on.ca and re-run their classification. Some cars may have moved into a different class than they were in 2019. If anybody requires some help with the class calculator, I will gladly assist. Nobody wants to see someone else running in a class too high or too low!

This year's tire rules actually open up additional options for people who are willing to change their set-up and/or think outside the box. I have been wasting already a few hours thinking about various options....

Edited May 23, 2020 by donrolandofurioso

[Dnfwm]

On 5/21/2020 at 11:06 PM, donrolandofurioso said:

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Edited June 3, 2020 by Dnfwm

[donrolandofurioso]

After you go into into the website and sign yourself in, select "My saved cars". You will see "Add new car" below the horizontal fields. If you click that button, a new screen will ask you for your base car, the year of it, and allows you to give it a name....I used my previous name, but with a 2020 moniker attached to it. After you entered and saved, the screen will go back to the previous one, but you should see your new car in there now.

Click on "Select" right at the beginning of the line. Your line should be red now. Move your courser further down to "Add new PIP schedule" and click on it. The first window that pops up gives you the opportunity to name this schedule (for example "with stock tires"). Also please enter your own body weight in the next line. Do not hit enter, or you will move back into the previous screen!

(However, if you did, no problem! You will find now in that previous screen that your car is also listed in the lower box. Click on "Edit" right above "Add new PIP schedule", and you will be forwarded to the screen again where you just added your weight.)

If you look at the box where you just entered your weight, you will notice that there are actually four tabs, and you just worked on the first tab called "General Information".

The second tab is "Dyno plot". I fooled around with that one a bit, but it is clearly meant for cars that have had either extreme engine modifications, or some sort of an engine swap,. Just ignore it...

The third tab, "Select Modifications", is the big one! Here every competitor needs to go through every line. While some don't even apply (for example: on a Rotary engine I cannot install different camshafts), every line needs to be evaluated. This is a tedious task, but it is necessary for fair classification. The places where many people fail to assess their cars properly are in Interior, Engine, Tires, Suspension and Exhaust.

As you go through each item on that long list, you will eventually get to tires, where some of the changes happened.  Looking through the five lines, you will notice that lines 1,2 and 5 do not apply to your car.as your 3R are UTQG 100. Line 4 also does not apply, as your tires are not rated "Premium" since they do not have ONLY circumferential molded grooves. Therefore your tires fall into line 3. Tick off the little Select Box (yes, 5 PIP).

Go through the entire rest of all lines. As you will notice, there is a narrow band across the top of the screen that keeps hovering even when you scroll down the list. in that line you see your car's overall PIP. I don't know exactly what PIP (Performance Index Point) stands for, but they are a points system to make cars comparable to a base line - you can almost consider them as penalty or handicap points.At the end you will get to "Save Changes to the PIP Schedule". When you click on it, an information box will appear - click "OK" to continue.

Now you will get informed that your PIP schedule has been updated. Before you acknowledge, please have a quick look at that narrow band on the top. You will most likely see that your classification has changed. I entered your body weight as 225 pounds (sorry if I am wrong!), and the only item on the entire list I dealt with for this exercise was the tires, yet your classification went from SGT2 to SGT1.

Now please go to the fourth tab. You will see a summary of your car and its modifications. This is the page everybody has to print out for the particular set-up their car is in during any race weekend, meaning if you change your set-up, you need to print out a new summary. When you go to the bottom, hit "Save, but do not submit to CCC". Now this particular car set-up is saved in the first screen that you hit when you click on "My saved cars" after entering the website.

 

I find that if you tend to change your set-up on a regular basis (for example you run your stock tires, but the odd event you want to mount racing slicks), it is easier to run two or three different PIP lists and name them so that you can recognize which one is which, rather than continuously changing your one and only list you saved. However, if you change your set-up, just bringing a different PIP List is not enough - you must register your car in the proper class for that race day! It appears that Motorsportreg.com automatically defaults to the class you originally declared, therefore each driver has to make the effort to actively change the classification of the car!

 

I hope this walk-through helped to guide you and others through the casc classification.

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by donrolandofurioso

[donrolandofurioso]

Did a bit more checking...

PIP stands for Performance Index Points.

HI stands for Handling Index..".that is assigned to each representative vehicle to judge its handling and braking capability (and other non-engine output or weight related criteria)relative to other vehicles. More details and a list of examples for each value in the handling index scale are outlined in Section 6.2, Handling Index."

"There are a number of factors that influence handling- suspension design, steering geometry, frame/chassis rigidity, wheelbase, track, weight distribution, centre of gravity, roll stiffness, size of tire that will physically fit on the vehicle, etc. The Classification Committee has quantified these various handling attributes (and other non-engine output or weight attributes) into a ‘Handling Index’ number."

That information comes from the OTA rule book, which we follow here in MB. Obviously PIP and HI will be initially set and subsequently monitored (and changed, if necessary) by the OTA.

Edited May 22, 2020 by donrolandofurioso

[David Klassen]

I noticed that there is no mention of brake equipment mods. I looked ‘cause I’m going to install a BBK.

[donrolandofurioso]

You are right, there is none. I assume (meaning not knowing for sure) that brake upgrades are considered a safety item. Maybe they figure that any increase in braking performance is being counteracted by the higher inertia during acceleration and a (likely) increased amount of unsprung weight, so the handling and overall performance remains a wash?

[mcorrie]

4 hours ago, David Klassen said:

I noticed that there is no mention of brake equipment mods. I looked ‘cause I’m going to install a BBK.

Yes - as @donrolandofurioso mentioned, brakes are a safety item and are a free mod, so go ahead and put the big brakes on. I did the same.

[mcorrie]

@Dnfwm for a real world explanation gimme a call (dm) and i’ll be glad to let you know what I know. The short version is that nothing is perfect and they know it. Not long ago I was in YYZ and had lunch with one of the OTA directors. They’re good guys and know it’s not perfect and they try to make the corrections to keep it close as possible and fair. In fact I had to laugh as they made the Vette and Camaro “less dominant” with HI changes, this is the opposite to the Nissan GTR, they had to make the GTR more competitive because the Vette was kicking it’s ass - Detroit is doing it right!

matt

Edited May 25, 2020 by mcorrie

[donrolandofurioso]

David, from the OTA rule book:

8) The OTA car classification system expects safety and will not reward unsafe practices. This said, safety is its own reward and the classification system shall not use negative PIPs to further a safety agenda (e.g., a HANS device may provide additional safety, but it has no performance benefit so cannot be assigned a negative PIP value). Examples of how safety is encouraged are:a) All brake modifications are zero PIP.b) Rollover protection is given negative PIP values that reflect the weight penalty incurred so that competitors are not penalized for their use.

Edited May 23, 2020 by donrolandofurioso

[Ianfromduff]

Thanks Roland for the excellent write up as always!!!

 

I'm just finalizing up the 2020 sup regs. new to this year is penalties for not being able to provide a classing sheet(digital or paper)/ or entering your car in a lower class.

 

Just an fyi if you look in the beginners guide to time attack forum I have a walkthrough video on how to correctly class a car.

[Dnfwm]

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Edited June 3, 2020 by Dnfwm

[Ianfromduff]

53 minutes ago, Dnfwm said:

Ian, I watched your video for car classing and I went through it with my car. There is a tab called Select modifications (I didn't do any modifications), then there is a tire section, it states installation of tires, I didn't install any tires that are different than what the car came with. I honestly don't understand how you guys want me to take points on top of what the car was already classified as. When the stock base car was classified as an SGT2, they  would have had to take into consideration the tires on the car, the wing on the car, the dive planes on the car, the fact that it is supercharged etc. etc. You can tell that they took all of this into account, other wise all camaro SS and up cars would have the same pax, which they don't. 

I want to compete this year, but if there is zero chance for me to win, then i'm going to sit out of the points race. I honestly just can't wrap my head around how everyone on here thinks I should be in the same class as the c7 z06 which has the same engine and drivetrain as my car, but is 300 pounds lighter and more aerodynamic. I hit 203-205 into turn 1 braking zone, and the vette hits 210 to 220, but sure put me in the same class as it.   

The ota base car list assumes every car is in stock form with 240+ tw tires. 

 

Just because a car comes from factory with lower treadwear tires does not mean it is exempt from taking pips for those tires.

 

As far as all other modifications, you only have to claim them if they are non OEM. So the canards that come on your bumper from factory are not considered a modification. 

The same rules apply to the Corvette and that's why it was reclassified to a mod1 car last year. 

[donrolandofurioso]

"I want to compete this year, but if there is zero chance for me to win, then i'm going to sit out of the points race. I honestly just can't wrap my head around how everyone on here thinks I should be in the same class as the c7 z06 which has the same engine and drivetrain as my car, but is 300 pounds lighter and more aerodynamic. I hit 203-205 into turn 1 braking zone, and the vette hits 210 to 220, but sure put me in the same class as it. "

I am not able to follow your argumentation. Last year the Corvette ran one class higher than you, yet you won the Championship. This year the Corvette will run one class higher than you, and you might very well win the Championship again. How do you feel that you will have zero chance to win? Pretty much everybody BUT you can say this, but you?

From what I understand from everything I read up on, Time Attack is supposed to be a race type where every car should be able to win the championship. It is assumed that the perfect driver getting the perfect lap out of his/her T3 car will via adjusted time have as much of a chance getting the same amount of points as the perfect Mod 1 driver with a perfect lap. This seems to work for the most part. For the longest time in last year's championship there were half a dozen cars from different classes within less than one point from each other.

It also works for you. You and Dan are always close in points, and out of three races that you both were on the track,. you actually won one (33%), despite being one class lower. Why do you feel that this is not fair? Because you have no guarantee that you get more points than the Corvette? It is easy for you to feel picked upon, but do you ever look at the other 45 cars on the track, most of which don't even get remotely close to 200km/h on the Finish Straight? Is it fair to them if you run regulated tires, but don't want to take Handicap points for them? After all, you often have the fastest time of the race, and are then guaranteed 100 points - an amount that someone in a lower class is virtually never able to achieve, just because they don't have the kind of power that your car makes...your car already has a huge non-penalized advantage over the vast majority of the field!

Now I hope that you realize that there are two things we have been talking about: the new tire ruling, that did not affect you at all, because already last year you were supposed to take the 5 PIPs. The other thing that was talked about is the reclassification of your car's Handling Index. This does currently not affect your car, either. It might if you plan to modify your car, potentially making it slip into the next higher class a bit sooner then last year depending on the modifications, but right now it does not affect you. Therefore nothing changes for you at all in 2020.

When you look at our own club, you can already tell that the ZL1-1LE was classified a little bit too low. The three cars in our club have no problems getting high points in every event. I am not saying that the drivers have nothing to do with that, but if the entire premise is that all cars in all classes should have a relatively equal chance for points, and if we can assume that the other drivers in the other cars are not all duds, then the ZL1-1LE had been evaluated too pessimistic. Fact is that it is the OTA who changed the HI, not WSCC, So if the OTA upped the Handling Index somewhat, there must have been the same things happening on other race tracks. If the spirit of Time Attack lies in the premise that all cars should have an equal chance of winning, OTA had obviously no choice but to revisited the HI of the ZL1-1LE. And again, the adjustment is so small, it doesn't even affect you. So come out this year and whoop our asses again, and do your battles with the Corvette, because nothing really has changed between you two.

Edited June 2, 2020 by donrolandofurioso

[Dnfwm]

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Edited June 3, 2020 by Dnfwm

[Matter]

On 6/1/2020 at 10:33 PM, donrolandofurioso said:

It is assumed that the perfect driver getting the perfect lap out of his/her T3 car will via adjusted time have as much of a chance getting the same amount of points as the perfect Mod 1 driver with a perfect lap.

What is the best lap time for Al Marcoux in a T3 class car?  Does the adjusted time match the MOD1 class?

[Dnfwm]

I will have you guys know I went to auto x this weekend, which also uses PAX and I lost to pretty much everyone and every thing, I even lost to everyone and every thing without PAX too. Cars I lost to... a stock mazda 3 hatch, a neon, subarus, focus RS's, Bmw's and the list goes on and on.

 

Anybody wanna tell me why I lost? I know the reason, just want to see if you guys do too.

[Weebly]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 4:32 PM, Dnfwm said:

I will have you guys know I went to auto x this weekend, which also uses PAX and I lost to pretty much everyone and every thing, I even lost to everyone and every thing without PAX too. Cars I lost to... a stock mazda 3 hatch, a neon, subarus, focus RS's, Bmw's and the list goes on and on.

 

Anybody wanna tell me why I lost? I know the reason, just want to see if you guys do too.

Hmmm, maybe you can give us a hint?

Seriously though, hustling 4100 lbs and 650 hp around a tight Autoslalom course would be a challenge for the best of drivers.  The fact that this weekend was your first time doing Autoslalom, I was very impressed.  I hope we'll see you at future events and maybe you can encourage a few of your buds to join as well.

[Rare Snake]

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 4:32 PM, Dnfwm said:

I will have you guys know I went to auto x this weekend, which also uses PAX and I lost to pretty much everyone and every thing, I even lost to everyone and every thing without PAX too. Cars I lost to... a stock mazda 3 hatch, a neon, subarus, focus RS's, Bmw's and the list goes on and on.

 

Anybody wanna tell me why I lost? I know the reason, just want to see if you guys do too.

That is nuts!!!

[Corey]

On 6/3/2020 at 4:32 PM, Dnfwm said:

Anybody wanna tell me why I lost?

Steering spacer?

That's not a slam! Autocross has a unique skillset that takes many years of experience to master. The lack of practice laps puts an extreme emphasis on reading the course in advance. An autocross lap is quite messy/imperfect in comparison to a lap of a road course you've done hundreds or thousands of times before. Some people love that, some people hate it. 

I'm impressed you did as well as you did. 

[mcorrie]

On 6/6/2020 at 7:36 AM, Corey said:

Steering spacer?

That's not a slam! Autocross has a unique skillset that takes many years of experience to master. The lack of practice laps puts an extreme emphasis on reading the course in advance. An autocross lap is quite messy/imperfect in comparison to a lap of a road course you've done hundreds or thousands of times before. Some people love that, some people hate it. 

I'm impressed you did as well as you did. 

Many moons ago I AX’d at a couple venues in town (used to be MAXA before AX was under the WSCC banner, but I digress...) I went to the Downs event because a very good driver I raced with in Karts was trying it for the first time and I was quite interested to see what he did. His results were rather anti-climactic; very similar to @Dnfwm - if he wasn’t dead-last, he was next to dead last. 
3 weeks later he had another first, actually 3: his first ever Formula Ford race, his first time racing on Isle Notre Dame, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve. His first FF1600 Pole position and his first FF1600 race win....ok, thats 4, but who’s counting...He went on to win the Skip Barber FF2000 Scholarship and more 

AX, as Corey mentioned, is a special skill set. It really is. I gave up because I just couldn’t do it, it takes time and a level of dedication I just couldn’t connect with. It’s going to take a different approach to succeed in AX. What I’m saying is the point system has zero influence on your ability to drive, failing to win at your first attempt at AX has zero to do with your ability to drive OR your cars competitiveness, and re-classing your car is not going to change your raw lap times. Let the rule makers make the rules and let the drivers drive the cars. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by mcorrie

[Dnfwm]

 @Corey nailed it. The reason why I lost is because there were a lot of experienced auto crossers that have done this way more than I have and they are simply better drivers at auto x than me, and I'm good with that. I felt I did quite good for my first outing too and I'm sure I will get faster and faster with more and more practice and more seat time developing that specific skillset.

Back to road course talk, Roland says Ontario time attack was the ones that changed the classing on 1LE's. Which sure, they did, but how much influence came from the WSCC. Did @mcorrie submit my name last year to the OTA director because I was running faster than other competitors? Was there a few references from WSCC asking for reclassification of 1le cars, mean while OTA thought the classification was fine? I gotta be honest, reading that CASC forum was upsetting. To me it reads that you guys think its the car was doing all the winning and it had nothing to do with the driver. 

It is what it is. None of this matters as im still going to show up and lap. Its just such a blow that everyone else can run 100 treadwear tires but my stock goodyears take a class bump, yet you guys have your own agreement for Nankang AR1's to not take a point hit. Im glad you guys came up with your own agreement regarding 100 tread wear tires. I would love to play the tire game with you guys, but unfortunately I'm not a millionaire and I only buy what ever I can find a deal on. Nt01s and r888r are like 700 to 800 a tire for my car. AR1's aren't available in 325's. I don't have a 10,000 dollar a year tire budget, so I guess i will just lose points instead.

Call me a complainer,  that's fine, but I'm allowed to voice my opinion when it's my ass that's taking the class bump this year. Its not like the battle is just between Dan and I, there were already lots of people clipping at my heels without the class bump.

[Tysawch]

Kinda on off topic. Most of the r888r/ar1 / exempt tire classing rules are super irrelevant in time attack. The fastest tires for the points taken in pax will always be the super competitive 200tw tires (re71s a052s rt660s rs4s ect or Hoosiers. If your showing up on a 100tw tire tbh your not there to win. 100tw or r comps are intended to have good grip over a longer session. So they can turn a decent quick lap but compared to taking a tire Intended for auto cross onto the road cores that can give that one hero lap (all you need to win time attack) they do not stack up. The only perk of the r888 and nt01 is sizing. It does become hard to find tires when you cross over the 285 section width and those tires definitely fill that gap. Just not very quickly