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2020 TA Tire Rule changes?

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Posted (edited)

I was just running my car through the CASC ONTARIO TIME ATTACK site and see there are some new rules - Tire UTQG ratings - 250 seems to be the cut off now. Anything under 180 comes with some PIPs unless exempt?

5.1.A2 Other Modifications - Tires
 
  Rule Description PIPs Select Modification Notes
1 Installation of four street tires with a tread wear rating (UTQG) of 250 or greater. (“Enduro Tires”) -5.0    

2 Installation of four “street tires” with a tread wear rating (UTQG) of 180 to 249, as well as GG compound Toyo brand tires, R888, R888R and RA-1, and Nitto NT01, but excluding Kumho Ecsta V720 ACR, which are classified as non-premium R compound tires, notwithstanding their UTQG rating (see rule 4.8.2.4) 0.0    

3 Installation of “non-premium” R compound tires, defined as DOT Legal competition tires that have a moulded tread pattern with non-circumferential siping, including Kumho Ecsta V720 ACR. 5.0    

4 Installation of “premium” race compound tires defined as tires that only have circumferential moulded grooves but also includes Continental Canadian Touring Car Championship (CTCC) Hoosier Grand AM Cup, foreign market Yokohama A048R and full wet weather race tires. 10.0    

5 Installation of four Race Slicks 15.0  
Edited by beppca

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Posted (edited)

I assume that we continue this year with our agreement that the AR-1 is equivalent of the R888 and NT01. However; Brad's question brings up an interesting point: since this arrangement is valid within our club only, what will happen during the Western Championship in the fall? Will everybody using the AR-1 have to take 5 PIPs? Or are we telling potential competitors from the West that they will have to accept our club-internal arrangement? And how will that affect any possible protests from a competitor who does not agree that the AR-1 is equivalent to the Toyos and the Nitto?

Any thoughts from Ian and/or our stewards?

Edited by donrolandofurioso

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Posted (edited)

Also interesting is the Corvette, Camaro’s and Mustang Handling Index increased

not my Camaro - just the fast ones :D

From OTA forum:

The biggest change is in our tire rules. The definition of a "street" tire rated at zero PIPs is now for a treadwear UTQG rating of 180 to 249 up from 140 and over last year. Again the Toyo R888, R888R and Nitto NT01 tires classify as "street" tires despite their UTQG rating of 100.

We are also introducing a new class of tires (as yet unnamed) with UTQG ratings of 250 and up which will actually classify as negative 5 PIPs or 1 class.

Next year will be a 6 competition event season with the best 5 out of 6 events scored. There will be no double points event. The schedule will follow shortly.

A few cars will have their classification adjusted as follow.

The handling index for the 2015 and newer Mustang GTs will increase by 5 HI

The handling index for the 2010-2013 Grand Sport Corvette will increase by 5 HI

The handling index for the 2017 and newer Camaro SS 1IE and Camaro ZL1 will increase by 10 HI

Edited by mcorrie

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On 5/3/2020 at 9:43 PM, donrolandofurioso said:

I assume that we continue this year with our agreement that the AR-1 is equivalent of the R888 and NT01. However; Brad's question brings up an interesting point: since this arrangement is valid within our club only, what will happen during the Western Championship in the fall? Will everybody using the AR-1 have to take 5 PIPs? Or are we telling potential competitors from the West that they will have to accept our club-internal arrangement? And how will that affect any possible protests from a competitor who does not agree that the AR-1 is equivalent to the Toyos and the Nitto?

Any thoughts from Ian and/or our stewards?

Yes as long as the toyo r88r are exempt so will ar1s. The tires test pretty much identical and last time I checked toyo isnt giving us any money. 

 

The western championship is held with our supplimentrary rules so anyone who competes will be required to do so under our rulebook. 

 

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FYI
 

http://speed.academy/100-tread-wear-track-tire-review-nankang-ar1-maxxis-rc1-toyo-r888r/


“In the end, the Nankang AR-1 came out on top in terms of lap times and its advantage over the Maxxis RC-1 and Toyo R888R was clearly in the braking zones and into the first half of the corners. The Nankang AR-1 also had the most neutral handling balance from turn-in to the apex followed by gradual and predictable breakaway characteristics as it transitioned towards oversteer balance on corner exit.”

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So I run the tires that my car came with (supercar 3r) and I have to take a point hit? but its OK to run 100 Treadwear ar1's, r888, and nt01s with no point hit? On top of that a c7 grand sport is faster than an SS 1LE and a c7 Z06 is faster than a ZL1 1LE. Yet C7's aren't taking a point hit? 

How am I supposed to compete in the same class against a car that is even more nuts than mine and 300 pounds lighter?

 

It was proven last year how accurate the PAX was when Dave had a c5 z06 there , versus my car and and vs Dan's vette. All of our times were within  fractions of each other, but now my class is bumped? 

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You understood right. Stock does not mean you get to bypass the rules.There are cars that come from factory on with even more aggressive tires than yours; that does not mean that they can line up against some inferior tires and claim innocence just because that is the way the car came. You are free to put on AR1, R888 or NT01 and see whether you get faster, or even keep the same lap times- I personally doubt it, as your Supercar 3R is a race-ready tire (and is famous for behaving more like a UTQG 80 tire). Rules are for everybody to adhere to, and you are not the only one who gets caught by surprise with this rule change. As you notice, there are not only tire rule changes; there are also Handling index changes,. And the rule changes do not just affect the Camaro.

That means everybody needs to go into the classifications on casc.on.ca and re-run their classification. Some cars may have moved into a different class than they were in 2019. If anybody requires some help with the class calculator, I will gladly assist. Nobody wants to see someone else running in a class too high or too low!

This year's tire rules actually open up additional options for people who are willing to change their set-up and/or think outside the box. I have been wasting already a few hours thinking about various options....

Edited by donrolandofurioso

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9 hours ago, donrolandofurioso said:

I just went on to the ontario time attack forum and went to the base car list and my car is labeled as an SGT2. So is the car an sgt2 or not? I don't understand what 10 hi is or pips are . OTA site tells you to look at the base car list. 

http://ccdb.casc.on.ca/BaseCarList.aspx

.  

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After you go into into the website and sign yourself in, select "My saved cars". You will see "Add new car" below the horizontal fields. If you click that button, a new screen will ask you for your base car, the year of it, and allows you to give it a name....I used my previous name, but with a 2020 moniker attached to it. After you entered and saved, the screen will go back to the previous one, but you should see your new car in there now.

Click on "Select" right at the beginning of the line. Your line should be red now. Move your courser further down to "Add new PIP schedule" and click on it. The first window that pops up gives you the opportunity to name this schedule (for example "with stock tires"). Also please enter your own body weight in the next line. Do not hit enter, or you will move back into the previous screen!

(However, if you did, no problem! You will find now in that previous screen that your car is also listed in the lower box. Click on "Edit" right above "Add new PIP schedule", and you will be forwarded to the screen again where you just added your weight.)

If you look at the box where you just entered your weight, you will notice that there are actually four tabs, and you just worked on the first tab called "General Information".

The second tab is "Dyno plot". I fooled around with that one a bit, but it is clearly meant for cars that have had either extreme engine modifications, or some sort of an engine swap,. Just ignore it...

The third tab, "Select Modifications", is the big one! Here every competitor needs to go through every line. While some don't even apply (for example: on a Rotary engine I cannot install different camshafts), every line needs to be evaluated. This is a tedious task, but it is necessary for fair classification. The places where many people fail to assess their cars properly are in Interior, Engine, Tires, Suspension and Exhaust.

As you go through each item on that long list, you will eventually get to tires, where some of the changes happened.  Looking through the five lines, you will notice that lines 1,2 and 5 do not apply to your car.as your 3R are UTQG 100. Line 4 also does not apply, as your tires are not rated "Premium" since they do not have ONLY circumferential molded grooves. Therefore your tires fall into line 3. Tick off the little Select Box (yes, 5 PIP).

Go through the entire rest of all lines. As you will notice, there is a narrow band across the top of the screen that keeps hovering even when you scroll down the list. in that line you see your car's overall PIP. I don't know exactly what PIP (Performance Index Point) stands for, but they are a points system to make cars comparable to a base line - you can almost consider them as penalty or handicap points.At the end you will get to "Save Changes to the PIP Schedule". When you click on it, an information box will appear - click "OK" to continue.

Now you will get informed that your PIP schedule has been updated. Before you acknowledge, please have a quick look at that narrow band on the top. You will most likely see that your classification has changed. I entered your body weight as 225 pounds (sorry if I am wrong!), and the only item on the entire list I dealt with for this exercise was the tires, yet your classification went from SGT2 to SGT1.

Now please go to the fourth tab. You will see a summary of your car and its modifications. This is the page everybody has to print out for the particular set-up their car is in during any race weekend, meaning if you change your set-up, you need to print out a new summary. When you go to the bottom, hit "Save, but do not submit to CCC". Now this particular car set-up is saved in the first screen that you hit when you click on "My saved cars" after entering the website.

 

I find that if you tend to change your set-up on a regular basis (for example you run your stock tires, but the odd event you want to mount racing slicks), it is easier to run two or three different PIP lists and name them so that you can recognize which one is which, rather than continuously changing your one and only list you saved. However, if you change your set-up, just bringing a different PIP List is not enough - you must register your car in the proper class for that race day! It appears that Motorsportreg.com automatically defaults to the class you originally declared, therefore each driver has to make the effort to actively change the classification of the car!

 

I hope this walk-through helped to guide you and others through the casc classification.

 

Edited by donrolandofurioso
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Did a bit more checking...

PIP stands for Performance Index Points.

HI stands for Handling Index..".that is assigned to each representative vehicle to judge its handling and braking capability (and other non-engine output or weight related criteria)relative to other vehicles. More details and a list of examples for each value in the handling index scale are outlined in Section 6.2, Handling Index."

"There are a number of factors that influence handling- suspension design, steering geometry, frame/chassis rigidity, wheelbase, track, weight distribution, centre of gravity, roll stiffness, size of tire that will physically fit on the vehicle, etc. The Classification Committee has quantified these various handling attributes (and other non-engine output or weight attributes) into a ‘Handling Index’ number."

That information comes from the OTA rule book, which we follow here in MB. Obviously PIP and HI will be initially set and subsequently monitored (and changed, if necessary) by the OTA.

Edited by donrolandofurioso
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You are right, there is none. I assume (meaning not knowing for sure) that brake upgrades are considered a safety item. Maybe they figure that any increase in braking performance is being counteracted by the higher inertia during acceleration and a (likely) increased amount of unsprung weight, so the handling and overall performance remains a wash?

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4 hours ago, David Klassen said:

I noticed that there is no mention of brake equipment mods. I looked ‘cause I’m going to install a BBK.

Yes - as @donrolandofurioso mentioned, brakes are a safety item and are a free mod, so go ahead and put the big brakes on. I did the same.

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@Dnfwm for a real world explanation gimme a call (dm) and i’ll be glad to let you know what I know. The short version is that nothing is perfect and they know it. Not long ago I was in YYZ and had lunch with one of the OTA directors. They’re good guys and know it’s not perfect and they try to make the corrections to keep it close as possible and fair. In fact I had to laugh as they made the Vette and Camaro “less dominant” with HI changes, this is the opposite to the Nissan GTR, they had to make the GTR more competitive because the Vette was kicking it’s ass - Detroit is doing it right!

matt

Edited by mcorrie

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David, from the OTA rule book:

8) The OTA car classification system expects safety and will not reward unsafe practices. This said, safety is its own reward and the classification system shall not use negative PIPs to further a safety agenda (e.g., a HANS device may provide additional safety, but it has no performance benefit so cannot be assigned a negative PIP value). Examples of how safety is encouraged are:a) All brake modifications are zero PIP.b) Rollover protection is given negative PIP values that reflect the weight penalty incurred so that competitors are not penalized for their use.

Edited by donrolandofurioso

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Thanks Roland for the excellent write up as always!!!

 

I'm just finalizing up the 2020 sup regs. new to this year is penalties for not being able to provide a classing sheet(digital or paper)/ or entering your car in a lower class.

 

Just an fyi if you look in the beginners guide to time attack forum I have a walkthrough video on how to correctly class a car.

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