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6 hours ago, Tysawch said:

Dot slicks in limited essentially makes it unlimited class without a cage. Aside from that point dot slick sizing in comparison to a street tire is a joke. My 245 dot slicks are as big as my 275 dot r compounds

I respectfully disagree. While you make an interesting point with size differences on 2 DOT rated tires, i must admit I’m a little unsure of your comparison. I have 245 DOT race tires and they are very, very close to the 245 street tire, the DOT rating makes sure of this. Your observation makes perfect sense if you were comparing a 245 Radial Slick race tire to a 275 DOT race tire. Clearly, I have not seen every tire out there and you could be quite accurate, it just seems a little off in my experience :).

When comparing proper race tires to DOT race tires, I’m afraid there is much more that goes into a race tire than meets the eye, and painting them both in the same brush is essentially selective exclusion. In the OTA system they take this into account and you take 10 points for a DOT race tire, 20 points for a slick (if my memory serves me correct, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong). In a Race Slick, the Carcass is different, the compound and layup is different, the sidewalls, shoulders, weight and load are quite different, the expected lifespan is light years different, the cost is much higher - they are each designed for a specific type of car in a specific type of racing. The only real similarity is that they are black and round. Racing tires, DOT race tires and Ultra High Performance street tires are in 3 different worlds, and fit nicely into the 3 proposed classes. In my humble opinion, the UHP tire is an Enthusiast tire, the DOT race tire is for Limited competition vehicles and Slicks are full competition tires.

If we are proposing a completely new rules package where the primary limiter/equalizer is tires (as you highlighted in an earlier post) and as I mentioned earlier that “the rules should meet the intent of the class” then DOT race tires (regardless of tread pattern) should be the correct tire for a Limited class. 

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We understand that with the new regulations change comes learning and adapting to the evergrowing sport of time attack. Our new regulations are based off of the 4 main time attack groups in the world(Global Time Attack, World time attack, Gridlife,  and SCCA). None of these groups use any sort of pax system. While i would love to have 4-5-6 different classes for competitors our numbers cannot support this while allowing a fun and competitive championship. Thus we settled on 3 classes with what we feel to be an equal step in performance between each class while being able to provide competitors a fun and fair class to compete within.

 

We do see the need to encourage newcomers into the club and the sport and to provide a fair challenge to unexperienced drivers as such we will be looking for a fair way to incorporate rookies into a fair classing.

 

With that being said safety is our number one priority and i feel as our requirements for safety are a fair and understandable update to the asn regulations.

 

We do understand these regulations are brand new and we expect tweaks to be made to show strengths and weaknesses between the classes.

 

Ian and Brooke

 

 

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Out of curiosity is this an effort to split the very broad GT1 class? Because I foresee a bloated limited class all the same.

I could put my M3 on a 235/40/18, 200AA  tire and destroy any lighter low hp cars that fall into the Enthusiast class. As power to weight isn't a factor but weight to tire is.

A 235 at 3000-4000 pounds puts most factory performance cars that might be in the hands of beginners coming out to drive in the limited class. And then serious performance cars like vipers, vettes camaros could be in the unlimited, punching up against caged cars on slicks big and small.

I don't think many people would be shopping for narrower rim and tire setups to compensate for their lack of HP or limited skill to get into the right run group.

I think 3 classes works for global time attack because they split FWD, AWD, RWD which often dictates lap time because of the relationship to power/grip levels 

Plus the majority of the traveling drivers for global have high power FI motors, DTM level aero.

Edited by Miguel

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Updated rules in the following:

 

Increased maximum tire sizes in Enthusiast and Limited classes to equal out classes

 

Added Novice scoring to promote newcomers to the sport

 

Added clarification between roll cage and rollover protection

 

*I'm a miner not an english teacher, please overlook any spelling mistakes! :D

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1 hour ago, Miguel said:

Out of curiosity is this an effort to split the very broad GT1 class? Because I foresee a bloated limited class all the same.

I could put my M3 on a 235/40/18, 200AA  tire and destroy any lighter low hp cars that fall into the Enthusiast class. As power to weight isn't a factor but weight to tire is.

A 235 at 3000-4000 pounds puts most factory performance cars that might be in the hands of beginners coming out to drive in the limited class. And then serious performance cars like vipers, vettes camaros could be in the unlimited, punching up against caged cars on slicks big and small.

I don't think many people would be shopping for narrower rim and tire setups to compensate for their lack of HP or limited skill to get into the right run group.

I think 3 classes works for global time attack because they split FWD, AWD, RWD which often dictates lap time because of the relationship to power/grip levels 

Plus the majority of the traveling drivers for global have high power FI motors, DTM level aero.

Hey Miguel, 

 

I thought the same thing as you about the limited class getting bloated, so we increased tire size in both classes to try to even them out.

 

Right now in global time attack, the fastest car is the PZ tuning FWD honda civic. From what ive been following the difference Between FWD, RWD, and AWD in nelegible as each has a unique set of strengths and weaknesses. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Miguel said:

I could put my M3 on a 235/40/18, 200AA  tire and destroy any lighter low hp cars that fall into the Enthusiast class. As power to weight isn't a factor but weight to tire is.

A couple people have tried this. Haven’t seen it work yet. That being said there could be a car out there that has the perfect combo to pull it off. All I’ve seen is making a zo6 fit into limited won’t hand you a win. 

 

Side note. If your going to fit your m3 into enthusiasts let me know. I’ll bring my frs on a good 200tw to see how it would compare. I’ve had the same idea to under tire into limited but always side to biggest tire/ fastest time 

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does the executive make the decision? do the incumbent class competitors vote?  a combination of both? - how does this get approved?

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Since this is all new the executive layers have been making the decisions with feedback from other disciplines and racers.  

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The more I think about it the less less a like these rules.

This turns the league into a “deepest pockets wins” event. Which is lame.

Which is why the FWD civic is the fastest in global because it has years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in development.

 

 

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Our fastest pax car last year was a stock corvette zl1 which dominated by a couple seconds.

Pax could have easily been a biggest pockets competition if anyone exploited it.

 

 

On the other note. Having big pockets doesn't equal being a good driver.  

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I suggest to call a meeting and hold an open discussion on this so everyone can have input. There are many who haven’t expressed their concerns. 

We’ve had tremendous growth in participation and need to make sure we don’t scare anyone away.

 

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1 hour ago, Miguel said:

The more I think about it the less less a like these rules.

This turns the league into a “deepest pockets wins” event. Which is lame.

Which is why the FWD civic is the fastest in global because it has years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in development.

 

 

DING DING DING!

WTA cars have huge dollars in development.

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Ive opened up a poll and open discussion on the time attack forums for the new rules. 

 

 We need to see the overall view of opinions and have a civil and respectable discussion on views and changes people feel need to be made.

 

I ask that further discussions on the rules happen on that thread.

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23 hours ago, Ianfromduff said:

Our fastest pax car last year was a stock corvette zl1 which dominated by a couple seconds.

Pax could have easily been a biggest pockets competition if anyone exploited it.

 

 

On the other note. Having big pockets doesn't equal being a good driver.  

Do you mean the Blue Z06 Corvette?  its not stock...awesome car - I'm totally in love with it, but its not stock...and the owner can drive - quite well i might add! Same as Gary's Camaro - awesome car - and it's stock, but Gary can straight-up drive. But this goes back to the fact that both of those cars are not cheap - 60, 70, 80K.  Both guys know what they are doing and have been around for a while...

I've been around motorsports all my life. Anybody who has will tell you the same thing: the guys with deep pockets and CAN'T drive, don't stick around for long. We can't make a rule set for the exception, we must make it for the whole.

While i agree there are gaps in the current PAX system, its the only rules set accepted by the WCMA and OTA, and possibly the FIA in Canada. If you were to propose a "Supplemental" rule change,  then by definition that would have to be in the form of an amendment to existing rules - and this is not what is proposed.

We can all see that T/A is growing around the world, there will be adaptations and growing pains with that. Everything evolves and changes - look at our Road Racing right now for example.  I posted the SCCA rules as an example of a rule set that appears to have a modern take on the current evolution of Time Attack, or Time Trials as the SCCA calls it. If you have no experience with the SCCA, it is a very traditional and conservative organisation. So for them to create the Time Trials Nationals is adding a level of validity to our chosen discipline, which is a good sign. With that in mind, they have produced an extensive rules set that is probably something to consider before we try to install a rules set that will require a few seasons to refine to the point we know where EVERYBODY fits. :)

EDIT: Sorry Ian, i was typing this while you were posting as well...

EDIT 2: strike through 'change'

Edited by mcorrie

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6 hours ago, mcorrie said:

While i agree there are gaps in the current PAX system, its the only rules set accepted by the WCMA and OTA, and possibly the FIA in Canada. If you were to propose a "Supplemental" rule change,  then by definition that would have to be in the form of an amendment to existing rules - and this is not what is proposed.

Supplemental Regulations are "additional" regulations based on territory requirements. Local clubs are allowed to "add" to the WCMA rule set but not change nor exclude any of the regulations put down by the WCMA. This BTW is what our insurance is based upon. There is not really anything called a "Supplemental Rule Change".

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1 hour ago, mcorrie said:

While i agree there are gaps in the current PAX system, its the only rules set accepted by the WCMA and OTA, and possibly the FIA in Canada.

This!

Here's the deal for me as HPDE Director and the face of the licensing school:

While i agree that Time Attack has been growing generally across the board, for WSCC specifically, the new students at our schools get interested in the prospect of level playing filed competition.

I can't sell this rule set as such. It creates silos and the sense that it's a money race. You can argue it all you want, but face value shows that it is.
The "driver's race" aspect of Time Attack is lost here.

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14 hours ago, Jim Eh. said:

Supplemental Regulations are "additional" regulations based on territory requirements. Local clubs are allowed to "add" to the WCMA rule set but not change nor exclude any of the regulations put down by the WCMA. This BTW is what our insurance is based upon. There is not really anything called a "Supplemental Rule Change".

thanks for the clarification Jim. Even if this is considered "Additional" it appears to be contradictory to existing regulations, meaning we aren't going to run both systems - and this is the point i'm trying to make. :)

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33 minutes ago, mcorrie said:

thanks for the clarification Jim. Even if this is considered "Additional" it appears to be contradictory to existing regulations, meaning we aren't going to run both systems - and this is the point i'm trying to make. :)

The pax classes are only listed as requirements for national championships. If the wscc ever decides to hold the national championship then pax clasess would have to be used. 

 

I specifically wrote these supplements to not cross over an rules but to clarify additonal requirements I felt were lacking from our time attack program.

 

Check out the solo sport general requirements for classing.

 

6.1 Classification of vehicles
For all competitions, vehicles may be classified by engine cylinder capacity, by modifications 
or as delineated by applicable rule sets 

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This is my point exactly. I'm not trying to create negative dialogue, but flush out the potential concerns prior to hitting the track. As its written, the deliberate ambiguity that policy makers live by is rearing its ugly head. We can be forced to run both systems, as its written - and i don't think anybody wants that, present company included. Adopting an existing system that caters to the needs of a growing sport just might be the way to proceed. 

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On 2/8/2019 at 12:56 PM, mcorrie said:

This is my point exactly. I'm not trying to create negative dialogue, but flush out the potential concerns prior to hitting the track. As its written, the deliberate ambiguity that policy makers live by is rearing its ugly head. We can be forced to run both systems, as its written - and i don't think anybody wants that, present company included. Adopting an existing system that caters to the needs of a growing sport just might be the way to proceed. 

The issue is catering rules that are specific to the wscc. We have to look at out current group and find a way to evenly split the group up. 

 

I read thru pretty much every time attack rulebook around the globe and took what seemed like the fairest rules and tweaked them to evenly split our time attack group into 3 classes that are all easily obtainable. 

 

 

 

 

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Perhaps a worthwhile exercise would be to apply the proposed rules to last year’s events and see exactly how things would have changed.  Then you will see if this was an improvement. You may need to make some guesses on car mods but a rough in can help. 

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