Ianfromduff Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) Topic redacted. ***** Hey all! After our first year in the directors position, we found many large/small flaws in our current layout. After many discussions between Brooke and I, other competitors, and other sanctioning bodies we have decided to add WSCC supplementary regulations to our current regulations. The biggest change is the changing of car classes. We are ditching the 14 classes pax system and going to 3 classes. We found the pax system with the time adjustments took away the spirit of raceday competition and had flaws in the points classing system. By limiting to 3 classes we hope everyone can more evenly compete against other vehicles of similar performance. You'll also see we have updated many safety requirements. With the repaving of the track and the spirit of competition our time attack group is faster than its ever been before. With the increased speed comes an increased need for safety. Lastly, we have added the option to register as a team. You may have up to 2 drivers on a team sharing a car. Drivers may swap between time attack races but will not see additional track time compared to solo competitors. The teams best lap time between both drivers will count towards points. Anyways we hope you find these supplementary regulations to be both fair and exciting. See you all when the snow melts! Ian Stecyk & Brooke Tuchscherer rulebookV1.1.docx Edited February 23, 2019 by Ianfromduff updated rulebook 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84TurboSupra Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 So just to make sure I am reading this right, a stock Civic or Miata would be in the same class as a stock Camaro or Corvette? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianfromduff Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 All depends on weight and tire sizes/compound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84TurboSupra Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) Hmmm. Interesting. Putting those extra wide tires on wasn't such a great idea after all... Edited January 2, 2019 by 84TurboSupra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Eh. Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Answered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Snake Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 Thanks for all the hard work, it looks good. I never really understood the PAX thing anyway. The only concern I have is the tire width. I'm not sure which class I would end up in, as the car is bone stock, but will my tire size be an issue on the Viper? (295 front, 355 rear) Dason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopistons Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) We have similar issues. Also, our car comes with other items than hood/trunk lid made of lightweight materials from factory as well. It could have otherwise fit into the "Enthusiast" group. I'm willing to give this a try before i render my final verdict, but I see ourselves in an uphill battle with other rockets (read: $$$) that fit into the same category as we do. Quick question: Why are there allowances for external WG dumps? are these not supposed to exit behind the driver as well? If not, is a hater pipe allowed? Edited January 2, 2019 by nopistons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianfromduff Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 hours ago, Rare Snake said: Thanks for all the hard work, it looks good. I never really understood the PAX thing anyway. The only concern I have is the tire width. I'm not sure which class I would end up in, as the car is bone stock, but will my tire size be an issue on the Viper? (295 front, 355 rear) Dason Hey dason. Due to the massive size of the tires on your viper the car would fall into unlimited class. When coming up with the new classes it was agreed upon that tires sizes should be a factor which was completely missed by the pax system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianfromduff Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 hours ago, nopistons said: We have similar issues. Also, our car comes with other items than hood/trunk lid made of lightweight materials from factory as well. It could have otherwise fit into the "Enthusiast" group. I'm willing to give this a try before i render my final verdict, but I see ourselves in an uphill battle with other rockets (read: $$$) that fit into the same category as we do. Quick question: Why are there allowances for external WG dumps? are these not supposed to exit behind the driver as well? If not, is a hater pipe allowed? The lightweight body materials would still fall into enthusiast if they are OEM. What is a hater pipe? Haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopistons Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Ianfromduff said: What is a hater pipe? Haha Youtube Video - Sort of explains it all! Edited January 2, 2019 by nopistons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Snake Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 31 minutes ago, Ianfromduff said: Hey dason. Due to the massive size of the tires on your viper the car would fall into unlimited class. When coming up with the new classes it was agreed upon that tires sizes should be a factor which was completely missed by the pax system. Oops. I missed that line in there about tires. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Revs Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 New rules look good guys! The pax system really hurt my evo when it came to mods that just made the car safer to be on the track. Glad to see we are getting closer aligned to what time attack is all about 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopistons Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 That's the whole point of the pax system! Mod your car? Take a penalty. Levels the playing field. We'll all have to wait and see how this new rule set will do that. 7 hours ago, Ianfromduff said: The lightweight body materials would still fall into enthusiast if they are OEM. Sorry Ian, I forgot to comment on this earlier. It doesn't say that at current. The rules are set so that if it doesn't say you can, you can't. It might be beneficial to others to add the "OEM" bit in the statement. Also, there are some grammatical errors to fix too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianfromduff Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 5 hours ago, nopistons said: That's the whole point of the pax system! Mod your car? Take a penalty. Levels the playing field. We'll all have to wait and see how this new rule set will do that. Sorry Ian, I forgot to comment on this earlier. It doesn't say that at current. The rules are set so that if it doesn't say you can, you can't. It might be beneficial to others to add the "OEM" bit in the statement. Also, there are some grammatical errors to fix too. The pax system only worked for stock cars. As soon as you started taking points you were put at a massive disadvantage. It was a flawed system and a big reason why none of the other bigger time attack sanctions used it. The rules are written to a minimum standard, not a "if it doesn't say you can, you cant".They were written to allow a great deal of freedom to modify in each class. If something is oem then it's not considered a modification. Grammar..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84TurboSupra Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 The pax system was meant to give the ability to have a wide variety of types of cars of various levels of preparation to be compared. It makes it a drivers race and tries to take the car out of the equation. Looser classing without any handicapping just turns it into a money race, spend (mod) more than your competitor and you win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopistons Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 4 hours ago, Ianfromduff said: Grammar..? I'll give you one example... 14. No loose items are aloud in the car 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tysawch Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 3 hours ago, 84TurboSupra said: The pax system was meant to give the ability to have a wide variety of types of cars of various levels of preparation to be compared. It makes it a drivers race and tries to take the car out of the equation. Looser classing without any handicapping just turns it into a money race, spend (mod) more than your competitor and you win. There is still a handicap. And a more regulated one for equalizing the field at that. Tires. You can only go so fast on the class max tire size for your weight. It also takes the incentive out of massive weight reduction since it directly effects the amount of tire you can run. Tire limits the amount of hp you can put down aswell. also Having the max tire size in place keeps cost down as it gets ride of the people just spending $$ to put the biggest stickiest tire on to win. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcorrie Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, nopistons said: I'll give you one example... 14. No loose items are aloud in the car "Water/Methanol injection is not aloud", skipping numbers as well - there's a few, lets not beat up Ian too bad lol!...Brian loves editing this stuff...Seriously though i'll be honest and say that i'm liking what's happening here and have a few questions regarding the intent of the classes - maybe there should be a quick "mission statement" at the beginning of each class to identify what kind of driver and car experience is expected for each, this would help potential entrants align themselves with our Series. 1) Enthusiast class (from my understanding, please correct me if i'm wrong) is meant for recreational drivers and track day people that are looking for a 'foot in the door' to competitive driving - this is what i'm reading into it. With that in mind, making a rule limiting them to not "extend the wheelbase by more than 2 inches" seems a little out of place to me. Further to that I might have interpreted that rule (as its used elsewhere) to read "modify wheel base by more than 2 in" as if we are modifying wheel bases, it can go both ways 2) Fuel limited to "Commercially available" well, what does that mean, no home brew or additives? This is a giant gap in my opinion. Commercially Available is C16, Elf Perfo 105, all race gas, Methanol is commercially available. from my perspective Enthusiast and Limited should be pump gas only, 93 (or whatever the highest locally we have is) Octane maximum. this is still a Limited class and we have to keep it reasonable cost-wise. EDIT - TIRES: 3) Tires, while this is always a hotly discussed topic, again, i'd like to ask for Clarity. it appears this is still not specific enough to create the level playing field in the classes that need it. Enthusiast: 1. Cars must use DOT-approved treaded tires with a minimum UTQG-rating of 200 or higher. Limited: Cars must use DOT-approved treaded tires with a minimum UTQG-rating of 80 or higher. Tires must have a moulded (sic) tread pattern (slicks with straight cut groves (sic) around the tire are not permitted) Unlimited - open. So i have been running the same tires for a couple years, they are DOT tires. i think that should be the end of the rules for Limited. Enthusiast again, for the intent of the class, sure, a 200 tire is ok. You are already limiting tire size (excellent) so I'd like to suggest that in Limited if you run a DOT tire, then you run a DOT tire - period the safety queues are not unreasonable but could use some clarity, however, i'm assuming this is going to be a "live document" for the most part, being updated as relevant concerns and situations present themselves. just want to say Good Job - and Thank you for taking the time to make this happen!! Edited January 3, 2019 by mcorrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84TurboSupra Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Quote ) Enthusiast class (from my understanding, please correct me if i'm wrong) is meant for recreational drivers and track day people that are looking for a 'foot in the door' to competitive driving - this is what i'm reading into it. That's the intent I think but it sucks for a newbie that shows up with a Camaro or Mustang and finds himself in Unlimited by virtue of the stock tire size of the car 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) If we do stick to only 3 classes I would recommend at least having novice sub classes. I have trouble believing 3 classes will do anything but discourage drivers who are not only new to the sport but ones who don’t get much seat time. We saw inspiring positive growth in 2018 I would recommend against a new and experimental rule set that could discourage the momentum of 2018. Edited January 3, 2019 by Mat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcorrie Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, 84TurboSupra said: That's the intent I think but it sucks for a newbie that shows up with a Camaro or Mustang and finds himself in Unlimited by virtue of the stock tire size of the car Totally agree - but those new Camaros and Mustangs are really fast, we all saw that last summer. This rule set is a starting point, and like Mat just suggested, we need to create a Novice class to support and retain the newbies. There will be more concessions in time as well, i'm sure. Time Attack is growing and these are the growing pains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare Snake Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, 84TurboSupra said: That's the intent I think but it sucks for a newbie that shows up with a Camaro or Mustang and finds himself in Unlimited by virtue of the stock tire size of the car This is kind of how I feel too. I'm not going to spend much time crying about it, but I feel like my car really screws me for getting some competitive track time. I've only been doing TA for 2 seasons, and I still have yet to get a day it's not raining, but I was kind of hoping to get more competitive in 2019. It's 100% street car, but now I have to race against full blown built race cars on paper, which will guarantee me a spot right at the bottom of the pile. Maybe I'm taking it wrong. All I want to do is have some timed fun on the track in my summer toy. At least I'll have Gary's Camaro and Martin's Porsche to keep me company in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Eh. Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Pretty sure the PAX system works. Although there are usually flaws in any system, PAX being no exception, it is usually based on the previous year competition results. When a new model or type comes to market there is a lag for a year or so but gets sorted eventually. In Autoslalom when the RS came out, the stock tires had a UTQG code of < 200 wear which was against "stock" class specs. That car actually fell under a "catch all" in the stock class for the model and was a real "pax cheater" for a couple of years. It does take a bit to sort the PAX out for any particular season but that could be handled in the supp regs before the start of the season. The great advantage to the PAX system, if administered correctly, is that it truly levels out the playing field. Complicated yes, fair....DEFINATELY. It works for the SCCA where they get 1000+ competitors for large national meets like in Lincoln Nebraska and have many more members living under the PAX system throughout the US (plus Canadian couterparts). Just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopistons Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mat said: If we do stick to only 3 classes I would recommend at least having novice sub classes. I have trouble believing 3 classes will do anything but discourage drivers who are not only new to the sport but ones who don’t get much seat time. We saw inspiring positive growth in 2018 I would recommend against a new and experimental rule set that could discourage the momentum of 2018. This! Jim's post is also true. Listen, I'm not against change. But change for the sake of change, or to specifically target a single or group of cars for more or less handicap, isn't want this should be about. Edited January 3, 2019 by nopistons 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84TurboSupra Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I know I have been coming across as very negative towards this but I just want to make sure that there is a place for everyone to compete and have fun whether they just want to bring their daily driver or drop tens of thousands on a dedicated track car. It seems like the people with heavily modded cars felt penalized with the PAX system. I think the new system overly rewards heavy modding and spending money. There has to be a middle ground to allow everyone a place to play. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tysawch Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Pax worked awesome that why the top 3 time attack finishers in 2018 used a pax factor higher then there car classes just to keep the field tighter lol yes I will say pax sucked for a heavily modified cars. But I don’t think anyone in mod 1 really cared. For any of us to be competitive we would have had to run a mid 55 sec lap. Being that the 1 min mark hasn’t been tackled yet it wasn’t going to happen haha Dot slicks in limited essentially makes it unlimited class without a cage. Aside from that point dot slick sizing in comparison to a street tire is a joke. My 245 dot slicks are as big as my 275 dot r compounds. On the point of stock factory sports cars being pushed up into unlimited due to tire size alone. I’ll just put it out there that buying a set of smaller tires is the only thing needed to get into limited and be ultra competitive The big upside I see is 3 classes that can be competitive and fun for everyone. A nice entry level class that can be ultra affordable and still very competitive. A middle class for fast sports cars and modified street cars with a common tire size that equalizes them... and unlimited for the people that want to build dedicated track cars. Another big upside is the ease of classing this will bring vs the countless times I heard people say they had difficulty doing the pax classing for there 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopistons Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 46 minutes ago, Tysawch said: On the point of stock factory sports cars being pushed up into unlimited due to tire size alone. I’ll just put it out there that buying a set of smaller tires is the only thing needed to get into limited and be ultra competitive The same could be said for your mods on your car...why not just remove them to fit in a lower PAX? Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
84TurboSupra Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tysawch said: For any of us to be competitive we would have had to run a mid 55 sec lap. Being that the 1 min mark hasn’t been tackled yet it wasn’t going to happen haha Just because you haven't done it yet doesn't mean it is impossible. There are many cars that are capable of sub minute laps that come to GMP, just no one has been able to achieve that yet (on timing). The point of PAX is that you can't buy lap times. The faster the car gets the higher the bar you have to clear gets. Edited January 3, 2019 by 84TurboSupra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tysawch Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 hour ago, nopistons said: The same could be said for your mods on your car...why not just remove them to fit in a lower PAX? Just saying... Some people care about being competitive to a pax/ or class. Some are just going for the best laptime possible. I’ve never complained about my pax score times as it’s not why I’m there. My car is also far from a wheel and tire swap to meet a lower pax group. i think pax was great when there was very few time attack cars with a wide performance spread to make it a way of comparing lap times competitively. Luckily now we have full time attack fields that make multiple classes achievable. I’m looking forward to seeing tighter competition for more people over all the classes instead of really just 5 out of 30 people being in a competitive spot for the points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Eh. Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I hope you are right and it all works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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