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Brake Fluid


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16 hours ago, Weebly said:

And here I thought you're supposed to rest your clutch foot on the dead pedal while going down the front straight

Don't forget about pad knockback!

Lightly tapping the pedal resets the pads back to the rotor before heavy braking.
Also note that light taps on the brake pedal while in the corner will allow the car to keep it's slip angle. More efficient in wet conditions however...

Your left foot can do more than just hang out near the clutch actuation device! :D

Edited by nopistons
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  • 3 weeks later...

So a bit more back on topic: I ended up using DOT 4 600 brake fluid made by Total. If you’ve never heard of Total Lubricants no worries. They have been around for a long time and their racing fuel brand, Elf Fuels, is pretty popular. In any case it’s more than likely the brake fluid is made and packaged by the same giant corporate entity that makes a vast majority of brake fluid on the market today...

What was interesting is the the Total 600 was very similar to MOTUL 600. Wet temp was 420 for Motul (if memory serves me correctly) and 414 for Total.  The track test was as successful as could be had, I got the brakes as hot as I could and the pedal started to feel slightly off at the end of a session, but I’m being super picky - some people might not notice anything. It was a lot better than the hi-temp stuff from can tire. 

The best part: I paid $10.99/500ml from an online store called fortnine.ca - it was $16 to ship 2 bottles or free shipping for $49 or over...so I got 5 bottles and free shipping - that was a deal - this is Canadian funds and shipped within Canada. 

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Not completely on topic, but nevertheless...

Many people are very focused on car supply shops, or race shops. But when you look for generic things such as brake fluid, it makes sense to expand your horizon. The company Matt ordered from - FortNine- has been around for many, many years. It was called Canadian Motorcycle Superstore before they changed names. In the motorcycle world, they have an impeccable name for quality and great prices, and they are a Canadian company. Yes, they sell mostly motorcycle parts. But brake fluid does not care in which vehicle it is; as long as the specs are right, you can use it in whatever vehicle you want.

Likewise, some people are hung up on brand names. If it is not North-American, it can't be good. In our world of international trade and companies buying out other companies, names don't really mean that much anymore. Just go on the internet and google...you will get the info that you need.

Matt's Total brake fluid is a very common commodity in Europe, yet I have heard people saying that it is probably not good, because it is not made to US standards (???). I personally (being from Europe) know that vehicles in Europe are stressed much more than here, so anything European gets my approval before I look at North-American products. I personally run Fuchs Oil  DOT 5.1 brake fluid without any complaints at all. Yes, people look at me funny, especially if they pronounce the name in English (let's not go there). But the fact is that it comes from a large (albeit in Canada almost unknown) company and it has excellent properties. The only disadvantage is that it is somewhat expensive - I believe it was about $30 per litre. But then I have to say that I am worth it ;-) , and I don't keep flushing it out. So maybe I run cheaper with expensive brake fluid than others do with cheap fluid.

 

Just my 2 cents...

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Hey everyone, time for an update.

The conditions were cloudy and cool on the Saturday of Vintage weekend, but I still lost brakes during the third session. I bled the suspect RH caliper and got back most of my braking. Managed to complete fourth session but pedal travel was increasing. Just to be safe I did a four-wheel bleed before heading home.

I tried to do an automated ABS bleed procedure with my newly purchased Autel MaxiCheck Pro but was informed by their tech support that it won’t work on my car. Too bad, so sad.

RH brake caliper has been ordered and I’m presently sourcing out stainless steel brake hoses. The RBF660 brake fluid has been in my system for 6 weeks, so that will have to be flushed.

How often do you guys do a complete flush on the Fuchs 5.1 and the Total 600?  I might just consider going back to DOT 4 now that I’ve convinced myself that I don’t have a boiling brake fluid issue.

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I personally have not done a complete flush on any of my vehicles after changing over to the Fuchs, only at the time of the change. On my everyday driver I did this at around 50000km, on my motorcycles I always do it as soon as I take possession of them. 

After that I intend to flush every two to three years. One way of keeping your brake fluid relatively fresh is to open the bleeder when you are pushing your pistons back during a brake pad change. This way any dirt and a fair quantity of fluid will be purged from your system, and it happens to be the fluid that was closest to the heat source. Once you have closed the bleeder, make sure that you top up your brake fluid reservoir before you pump up your brakes again so that you don't introduce air into your system.

This works especially well on competition vehicles, as they go through brake pads at an accelerated pace. When doing this, you basically partially flush your system at every brake pad change. It is not the real deal, but it allows for the fluid quality to stay at a higher level than not doing anything at all.

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Hey Roland - thanks for background, great info from you as usual!

I have to admit that I’m not a big “brake fluid changing” guy and don’t touch the system until it’s telling me there’s a problem! In the spirit of PM I have devised a scheme for my car...I will change brake fluid at the start of the season, exactly the same time I change my oil...and leave them both until there is a problem or the start of the next season! Obviously this is based on usage (and atmospheric exposure wrt brake fluid) and with the 3 T/A events I get to per year that’s roughly 20 timed laps per event...so I am not pushing the limits of serviceability in any way.  Oddly enough, I had a problem with both oil and brake fluid this year and both have been changed after 1 event! 

...but I have a ‘track only’ car. Not the same deal if you DD your race car. So let’s put things in perspective. Change the brake fluid before the first race next year, change the oil when you normally do. It should all be good. 

That being said - whats this normal schedule for changing manual transmission fluid??? I’ve still not changed mine in 3 seasons, starting to feel guilty!!

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Because my reservoir is a shared between the brakes and clutch, I (usually) tend to flush my brake fluid at the end of the season. Considering brake fluid being hygroscopic and may be loaded with moisture from the summers fun. Sitting all winter inside a bunch of steel parts, it may have negative effects on both systems. My biggest concern would be a brake system solid line failure due to internal corrosion. 

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2 hours ago, mcorrie said:

That being said - whats this normal schedule for changing manual transmission fluid??? I’ve still not changed mine in 3 seasons, starting to feel guilty!!

Most manufacturers expect you to change transmission oil between 60000 and 80000km. Again, on my DD I put my own spin on it and I change it roughly every 50000km. I usually hold a fluid-drain fest, and replace all liquids in my vehicle at the same time....it is just easier like that to keep track of things.

On the RX-8 I changed both transmission and differential fluid at the beginning of the season, yet I think I will drop it again before the first race in spring. Not only am I a lot harder on my transmission in the Mazda than in my Jeep, but I think I might want to try a different oil. Right now I have synthetic GL-5 in it, and the transmission does not shift nice. And the car constantly has that smell of gear oil inside, even though both transmission and differential are bone-dry...

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12 hours ago, donrolandofurioso said:

Right now I have synthetic GL-5 in it, and the transmission does not shift nice. And the car constantly has that smell of gear oil inside, even though both transmission and differential are bone-dry...

The RX8 trans can't use GL5. It must be GL4! It will be notchy and grind 3-2 and 5-4.

Redline MT90

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4 hours ago, nopistons said:

The RX8 trans can't use GL5. It must be GL4! It will be notchy and grind 3-2 and 5-4.

Have not experienced the 5-4 grind, probably because I only do this shift on the highway, when I have plenty of time to shift down. But yes, at the track my transmission and I have some serious discussions as to whether I get to shift down into second gear for turn 3 and 8.  I always win, but not without major protest from the transmission.

The transmission's revenge usually comes when I want to shift from 2nd into 3rd at the beginning of the straight, when it just doesn't want to slip into gear. Many a decent lap times have been ruined this year by rolling without drive across the timing line while fiddling with the gear shifter....

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On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 10:06 AM, nopistons said:

The RX8 trans can't use GL5. It must be GL4! It will be notchy and grind 3-2 and 5-4.

Redline MT90

 

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 9:03 PM, Corey said:

Many GL5 oils use compounds that attack yellow metals, like the brass synchros in transmissions. I'd change that out sooner than later. 

@donrolandofuriosoThis just in from Wikipedia:

"GL-5 is not necessarily backward-compatible in synchro-mesh transmissions which are designed for a GL-4 oil: GL-5 has a lower coefficient of friction due to the higher concentration of EP additives over GL-4, and thus synchros can not engage as effectively."

Hope it's not too late to drain and refill with Redline MT90 (which meets API class GL-4).

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I am aware of the differences of GL-4 vs. GL-5 oil. When after the HPDE I decided to change gear oil, I specifically looked up in ProDemand which oil to use.  There it was listed as either GL-4 or GL-5, also noting that Mazda actually asks for SAE 80, but due to the limited availability of such in North America, Mazda also allows 75W90. 

Because they were so detailed, and ProDemand gets their info directly from the vehicle manufacturer, I concluded that GL-5 should be ok and used it since I had it on hand. Many transmissions can and do use GL-5, so I did not spend too much thought on this. Obviously the last few race days have shown that the RX-8 transmission is not happy with the GL-5. So as I am typing this, the oil is draining out of the gear box of the car. and tomorrow it gets infused with the Redline MT90 that I picked up on Saturday as per Darin's suggestion.

It may not improve my lap times by much, but it will certainly make me feel a bit more comfortable if I can mitigate at least some of the transmission's current stubbornness....

 

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14 minutes ago, donrolandofurioso said:

 I specifically looked up in ProDemand which oil to use. 

........

Because they were so detailed, and ProDemand gets their info directly from the vehicle manufacturer...

Be careful with Mitchells. While as a general rule, they are ok, as you stated, they get their info from the manufacturers who balance politics with vehicle performance/reliability.

For example, Mazda (and thus pro-demand) calls for 5W-20 non-synthetic engine oil for the renesis which by any one on these forums would argue that it shouldn't be used in our track time fun applications.Rotary engines returned for rebuild or core show premature wear on the bearings that have been attributed to this oil choice...by Mazda.

A high zinc impregnated 5w30/10w30 API oil is needed for rotaries turning to 10k RPM for extended durations!

 

...and there goes the brake fluid thread! haha
sorry @Weebly

Edited by nopistons
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  • 1 year later...

Loved this whole thread. Looking to swap out the brake fluid on my mustang before HPDE this year. I have one bottle of Motul 600 (what, doesn't everyone ask for brake fluid for xmas?) but would need a couple more, it's like $30/500ml on amazon. Any place in the city that has a good price on some high temp brake fluid? I guess it doesn't have to be Motul but my Mustang requires Dot 4 low viscosity fluid.

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