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CRX Don

For current PTE civic racers – need your input on changes required to reduce costs and create more even competition

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I’m fine with following PTE with two exceptions.

Spec tire

Minimum weight

 

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My suggestion is CCC with a minimum weight, spec tire, and list of allowable drivetrain substitutions. Limiting points might be OK too.

To be more specific:

  • Minimum weight: if we only fix one thing in CCC it should be a minimum weight rule since this generated the most complaints. The known weight range of cars in CCC for 2017 was from 2137 (me) to 2230 (Mat) with driver and 1/4 tank of gas. I think Jordan's car weighs close to Mat's car too. So to make things even we would all need to weigh 2230, including CRXs.
  • Spec tire: how about Westlake RS? Cheap, easy to drive in the rain, reasonable wear.
  • Allowable drivetrain substitutions: Legalize what competitors have been doing for a while by using an equivalent but cheaper motor that has no performance advantage. For example, ZC instead of D16a6. We need to develop a list of what's OK.
  • Limiting points: This is an alternative to the current CCC restrictions. To summarize what Steve said in an earlier post - 10 points bumps you up a class instead of the usual 19. So 88-91 civics would be allowed 20 prep points, and the previous CCC restrictions would be lifted. This change would allow non-civics to also compete in our class, which would be nice. But it wouldn't ban some of the expensive things that CCC disallows. If we go with limited points instead of previous CCC restrictions I recommend having a spec tire as well to help control costs.

 

 

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I sent this to Don last year to help him come up with his ruleset. I did a bit of research based on a regional PTE champion selling his class-winning CRX a few years ago. 

I am against an all-out PTE ruleset because of the parts listed below:
 

Quote

Dyno @ 146HP, car weight was adjusted to fit within the NASA power to weight ratio for PTE (2291 lbs)

Parts:

  • Bisimoto Level 3 cam regrind ($789 USD  + shipping both ways)
  • Because of the increased redline and top end stress of the cam above, Bisi requires you to also run an improved valvetrain: $369 USD
  • Adjustable cam gear: $150
  • Skunk2 pro series intake manifold $260 USD
  • Bseries 60mm throttle body (ebay? ~100)
  • 225x15 tires (hoosier A6 in their case, but it's available in several brands) The only rims that are in the correct fitment for an 89-91 civic as far as I know are 949Racing ULR @ $200 each – so $800 minimum. Tires start roughly @ 200 each as well I believe (Hoosiers are about 2x to 3x that price).
  • OBD1 ecu conversion – for a proper tune. The ECU is ~$150 (ebay), you'll need a harness conversion as well $25, and then you'll need a dyno tune / retune. You'll also need a Hondata S300 $495 USD.
  • Spherical Bushings. Starting at: $900 USD ++
  • Head milled for .025 compression bump
  • Port Polishing & Matching
  • Injector blueprinting / matching – I don't have the link to the site on this computer but I believe it was around $350 USD + shipping both ways (you ship your injectors)
6

 

The prices were sourced last year, so they may be inaccurate now.

The total is approximately $5500 CAD (based on cheap tires, no dyno tune, no machine shop costs, no shipping costs) to purchase the parts on this wishlist. Everything will also wear out much faster because we're going faster, so be prepared to buy more wear parts (Hoosier a6 will last a couple races? a day?). Some racers are already changing their Hawks every weekend, better bring two sets now.

By contrast, last year I swapped in a $150 MPI salvage motor and raced on it for 3 weekends (it's still alive and strong). All I did was change the oil and bolt-ons. I'll take a $150 single day swap over a $5000 build (+ donor engine) any day of the week.

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I am chiming in at Matt's request.

Personally, I built my car for the ccc class.  Now I am not to sure I like where this going.

We should keep the cars as stock as possible, have a spec tire (cheap), and a min weight......end of story.  Let the driver win, not his pocket book.

Without this I am not gonna be racing next year.

 

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I'm all for a spec tire and minimum weight, and very against all out PTE.

That said I am alright with opening the rules up a bit to allow other cars to be a part of it.

I also feel minimum weight should maybe be set based on the engine, which would allow for the swaps Don has mentioned. A6 being 2230, and basing any other options off of that.

I don't really have an opinion on tires, since I was on only one set of Azenis for all of last season, and haven't driven any of the other options.

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I agree that an open club class should be part of this discussion and not limiting it to Honda.

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If PTE is too heavy on the pocket book, why not make it an open PTF class then?

As a PTE racer, interested in fair racing with you folks, I can't be in agreement with your classing rules.
Specifically regarding if the club class demands a spec tire . This just isn't feasible for me and brings back the point of being all inclusive. The PT rules allow for any car to compete in any class.

The underlying fact here is that this is all simple math performance point calculations. Very simple, as in the spreadsheet already has the math done for you.

Make it a 10pt (or whatever is agreed upon)threshold  into PTE. If PTF car, that car gets all of the PTF points, up to "10" on the PTE side. If they are a PTD car, they have to add weight, change tire size, put the manifold back on in place of the header...whatever to bring the points down to mid PTE points.

This covers weight, tires, "his cam is bigger than my cam", bla bla bla. Its black and white, and is posted publicly. Is there a runaway racer? Check the declaration, protest and ask for a tear-down. <-- Yes, Its in the rules!

Whatever the course of action you folks take, this should be nailed down soon. Folks are waiting to see where this is headed. Cars need to be built and/or modified.

 

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May I ask why the spec tire isn't something you would want? I'm all for the point threshold idea, but I would still want the tire restrictions to keep the costs under control..

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I was wondering if staying in base class “PTF” wasn’t something to consider. I actually thought I was staying in PTF in 2016...but everyone else went to PTE.

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59 minutes ago, Keen12a said:

May I ask why the spec tire isn't something you would want? I'm all for the point threshold idea, but I would still want the tire restrictions to keep the costs under control..

Mainly because the leading brand of discussion doesn’t offer appropriate sizes.

I also like to tinker with various parts to find the best match, working within the given points allotment ads to the challenge.

I still don’t get the “costs under control” comment. Work within your budget. There’s always going to be a better driver, faster car, someone with deeper pockets or has the lastest shiny part.

It’s inevitable, however the points ruleset is for everyone. They have to work within the points to have that fancy, expensive, shiny part. This shiny part might just be Nitto NT-01’s.

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As a racer who is about to join in on the fun this summer with a Honda CRX, I would like to throw my 2 cents into this debate....

  • I like the idea of keeping things simple and cheap within a "spec" classing system (however the feedback from last year's CCC seems to indicate that the car to car competiveness was inconsistent for a true spec class)
  • I like the idea of having a classing system that is open to "non-Honda" cars mainly to attract possible more entries and larger class group.
  • The idea of using the PTE class but with a limited number of modification points seems promising. The idea of having 10 points to "spend" in PTE might keep things in check however I can't help but think this would allow a lot more variations of modifications and weight between cars so I suspect will also be more challenging to keep the performance consistent like a true "spec class". Having said that, the result might in fact create a tighter and larger field.
  • The biggest expense throughout the season (assuming you don't blow poo-poo up) is with tires. It is also likely the biggest performance influence between true spec cars. If the goal is truly to even the playing field then in my opinion an obvious decision is to run a spec tire. Pretty much every form of spec racing runs an agreed upon tire for a reason - to keep an even playing field. Whether you like how the tire performs or not it will be the same for everyone. Lets pick one and be done with it.
  • Let's decide this soon...my CRX's engine was replaced some time ago with stock single cam ZC engine and I am hoping to run it as it is. I have lots of work still to do to prep it for its new life as a road racer however I do need to plan out the end game for it.

I guess to sum up my opinion:

- if we can generate an acceptable car count to have a true "Honda spec class" I am onboard since that is the car I now have and I don't want to make a lot of modification decisions...I have a Datsun for that.

-if we want a class that is flexible (yet still cheap) then lets look at the "limited points" PTE classing system.

That's my 2 cents plus an extra nickel thrown in.

Mike #88

 

 

 

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Awesome input everyone.

I think we should try and choose the 3 most popular opinions and put it to vote at or before the next meeting January 18th.

How does this sound?

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16 hours ago, nopistons said:

Mainly because the leading brand of discussion doesn’t offer appropriate sizes.

 

Why don't you get rims that will allow you to use the lead brand of discussion ?

That seems to be the easiest solution

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If there was a smaller factory brake package available for my car that would allow me to run pizza cutters, then that might be an option.

However that is counter productive in itself. This ruleset ya’ll want should be all inclusive and not require folks to go out and buy specialized parts right? Asking me to replace my RPF1’s with another set of rims at $1,200USD just to “fit in” is what you all have stated as improper.

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Not everyone has seen the post let alone had time to share their opinions and digest all the concepts suggested.

I feel like putting it to a vote January 18 barely gives people enough time to decide...however we need this settled ASAP.

Barring any concerns from the group I would suggest the vote take place no sooner than the 18th of January to coincide with the first WSCC meeting of 2018.

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55 minutes ago, coach said:

Not specialized, just the same parts.

 

Exactly my point. I can’t, and others might not either. I can’t buy parts that doesn’t exist.

It has to be fair competition, available for everyone.

By the way, how far along is your build Derrick?

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I totally understand.  What I mean is could we start the vote and leave it open until after the meeting.

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18 minutes ago, coach said:

LOL, and what kind of car are you driving next year ?

The question and answer to it is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.

But yes, I will be racing next year!

**EDIT**

It's irrelevant because it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter what car we each have but that we all are racing together...

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LOVE IT!

I will tell you exactly what I need

cage, seat, kill switch

 

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10 minutes ago, coach said:

LOVE IT!

I will tell you exactly what I need

cage, seat, kill switch

 

I take my previous post back.

My car is posted somewhere on here in another thread. I think in the spotlight forum. Perhaps you might understand why it's not easy for it to fit in.

Ultimately, the result of the vote will make me decide to continue in PTE or not, and I know I'm not the only one.

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I want to make 1 thing perfectly clear, I am a beginner in every sense of the word. This will be my first year road racing.

My opinions here are based on getting into the sport without having to break the bank to do it.  I know it's going to cost to play, as I have said before.

I really don't know enough about the PT class rules, but the jist of PTE sounds like you either spend money to go faster, or spend more money to make it lighter.

Derrick

aka

coach

 

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Well I’m glad THAT is all cleared up...

 

To answer your question Derrick aka Coach. ;)

As soon as we can agree on a few (maybe 3?) clear and concise options...we can start the voting process. 

 

If if anyone has another way they would like to achieve an agreement on classing please chime in.

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6 minutes ago, coach said:

...the jist of PTE sounds like you either spend money to go faster, or spend more money to make it lighter.

 

Lighter...not always. In my case, carbon bits were/are the only answer.
Cheapest way to get your lap times down is seat time!

Your comment adds to the suggestion of why not a PTF class rather than PTE?

Get your cage, seat and switch and come racing! Look forward to seeing you out there.

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I fear this will be a vote of a.) Inclusivity or b.) Affordability.

If the vote goes in the direction of Inclusivity (embrace PTE as written and kill CCC), I can see myself – and other budget sensitive racers – just adding weight or removing some parts to drop into PTF. If the majority of CCC does that, the current notcivics will all be PTE, the current CCC field will just be the PTF (+ yogi) field – and the notcivics will just be racing each other again. Nothing really changes except for our supregs and the decals on our cars.

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I think we need to keep as many cars in the same class as possible. It doesn’t make sense to have 10-12 nearly identical cars running around in 3 different classes. 

A spec tire seems like a good idea. If you look at something like Formula Vee or TCB all the cars run the exact same tire in the same size. If we don’t pick a spec tire we’ll end up there eventually once we figure out which is the fastest tire allowed in the class. So we might as well just pick one. 

Why don’t we just fine tune ccc? Are there a lot of people clammoring to join the class with a different car? We had 8 civics last year and will add a couple more this year. If you want to race ccc go get a Civic, they’re cheap their reliable and there’s a good knowledge base about them in the club. 

i think as a club with limited members we should get as many cars as possible in one class and have some real racing  fragmenting the cars into multiple classes seems counter productive. Look what happened with Formula cars, people started bringing f2000 and continental cars and vee drivers switched and now open wheel is pretty much dead.

Ccc had its first year last year and it wasn’t perfect as some have pointed out  but it did get a lot of people into one class. Now we have the opportunity to fine tune the rules and build on the concept. 

 

My 2 cents  

Damon

 

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I need to ask a question to whoever it is that is driving this; can you tell me in one or two sentences what your goal is for the CCC? 

Is it to cut costs? As we spent a PILE of money last year just to compete in CCC.
Is it to increase competition? I already stated in a previous post that watching the CCC races last year was boring and nowhere near as tight as the  competition was the year before pre-CCC. 

What is our goal for doing all this back and forth for all these posts for the CCC? What are we trying to solve that already hasn't been dealt with by an international association and their calculations in the spreadsheet?  

Someone clue me in on our single goal and I'll comment properly. 

Thanks. 

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I can only comment for myself.

My goal is to get an agreement in place as soon as possible so that new and existing racers have something to build towards.

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