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CRX Don

For current PTE civic racers – need your input on changes required to reduce costs and create more even competition

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Not everyone has seen the post let alone had time to share their opinions and digest all the concepts suggested.

I feel like putting it to a vote January 18 barely gives people enough time to decide...however we need this settled ASAP.

Barring any concerns from the group I would suggest the vote take place no sooner than the 18th of January to coincide with the first WSCC meeting of 2018.

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55 minutes ago, coach said:

Not specialized, just the same parts.

 

Exactly my point. I can’t, and others might not either. I can’t buy parts that doesn’t exist.

It has to be fair competition, available for everyone.

By the way, how far along is your build Derrick?

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I totally understand.  What I mean is could we start the vote and leave it open until after the meeting.

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18 minutes ago, coach said:

LOL, and what kind of car are you driving next year ?

The question and answer to it is irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.

But yes, I will be racing next year!

**EDIT**

It's irrelevant because it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter what car we each have but that we all are racing together...

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LOVE IT!

I will tell you exactly what I need

cage, seat, kill switch

 

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10 minutes ago, coach said:

LOVE IT!

I will tell you exactly what I need

cage, seat, kill switch

 

I take my previous post back.

My car is posted somewhere on here in another thread. I think in the spotlight forum. Perhaps you might understand why it's not easy for it to fit in.

Ultimately, the result of the vote will make me decide to continue in PTE or not, and I know I'm not the only one.

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I want to make 1 thing perfectly clear, I am a beginner in every sense of the word. This will be my first year road racing.

My opinions here are based on getting into the sport without having to break the bank to do it.  I know it's going to cost to play, as I have said before.

I really don't know enough about the PT class rules, but the jist of PTE sounds like you either spend money to go faster, or spend more money to make it lighter.

Derrick

aka

coach

 

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Well I’m glad THAT is all cleared up...

 

To answer your question Derrick aka Coach. ;)

As soon as we can agree on a few (maybe 3?) clear and concise options...we can start the voting process. 

 

If if anyone has another way they would like to achieve an agreement on classing please chime in.

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6 minutes ago, coach said:

...the jist of PTE sounds like you either spend money to go faster, or spend more money to make it lighter.

 

Lighter...not always. In my case, carbon bits were/are the only answer.
Cheapest way to get your lap times down is seat time!

Your comment adds to the suggestion of why not a PTF class rather than PTE?

Get your cage, seat and switch and come racing! Look forward to seeing you out there.

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I fear this will be a vote of a.) Inclusivity or b.) Affordability.

If the vote goes in the direction of Inclusivity (embrace PTE as written and kill CCC), I can see myself – and other budget sensitive racers – just adding weight or removing some parts to drop into PTF. If the majority of CCC does that, the current notcivics will all be PTE, the current CCC field will just be the PTF (+ yogi) field – and the notcivics will just be racing each other again. Nothing really changes except for our supregs and the decals on our cars.

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I think we need to keep as many cars in the same class as possible. It doesn’t make sense to have 10-12 nearly identical cars running around in 3 different classes. 

A spec tire seems like a good idea. If you look at something like Formula Vee or TCB all the cars run the exact same tire in the same size. If we don’t pick a spec tire we’ll end up there eventually once we figure out which is the fastest tire allowed in the class. So we might as well just pick one. 

Why don’t we just fine tune ccc? Are there a lot of people clammoring to join the class with a different car? We had 8 civics last year and will add a couple more this year. If you want to race ccc go get a Civic, they’re cheap their reliable and there’s a good knowledge base about them in the club. 

i think as a club with limited members we should get as many cars as possible in one class and have some real racing  fragmenting the cars into multiple classes seems counter productive. Look what happened with Formula cars, people started bringing f2000 and continental cars and vee drivers switched and now open wheel is pretty much dead.

Ccc had its first year last year and it wasn’t perfect as some have pointed out  but it did get a lot of people into one class. Now we have the opportunity to fine tune the rules and build on the concept. 

 

My 2 cents  

Damon

 

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I need to ask a question to whoever it is that is driving this; can you tell me in one or two sentences what your goal is for the CCC? 

Is it to cut costs? As we spent a PILE of money last year just to compete in CCC.
Is it to increase competition? I already stated in a previous post that watching the CCC races last year was boring and nowhere near as tight as the  competition was the year before pre-CCC. 

What is our goal for doing all this back and forth for all these posts for the CCC? What are we trying to solve that already hasn't been dealt with by an international association and their calculations in the spreadsheet?  

Someone clue me in on our single goal and I'll comment properly. 

Thanks. 

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I can only comment for myself.

My goal is to get an agreement in place as soon as possible so that new and existing racers have something to build towards.

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I guess I'm the most vocal defender of CCC at this point.

Quote

As its name shows, Spec Miata is a "specified" class. This means that the rules for allowable modifications to the car are very strict. The class intends to put drivers on a very even footing by making their cars as identical as possible. The rules are far more conservative than the Improved Touring category, but provide equivalent safety measures.

Because of the support of Mazda through Mazdaspeed, the wide availability of the car on the used market, plentiful and inexpensive parts, and the simplicity of maintenance on the cars, Spec Miata has become a very popular class. Also adding to the appeal is the fact that A Spec Miata can be raced in both SM and ITA/ITS in SCCA Regional Competition. A typical race-ready spec miata can be purchased on the market for $8000–$35,000 depending on race win history and specific modifications.

 

 

 

Let's swap the content for CCC

Quote

As its name shows, Club Civic is a "specified" class. This means that the rules for allowable modifications to the car are very strict. The class intends to put drivers on a very even footing by making their cars as identical as possible. The rules are  far more conservative than the PTE category, but provide equivalent safety measures.

Because of the support of Honda Civics through a large amount of veteran WSCC racers, the wide availability of the car on the used market, plentiful and inexpensive parts, and the simplicity of maintenance on the cars, CCC has become a very popular class. Also adding to the appeal is the fact that A Club Civic can be raced in both CCC and PTF/PTE in NASA Regional Competition. A typical race-ready club civic can be purchased on the market for $4000–$8,000 depending on race win history and specific modifications. Tired or rusty Club Civics make great ice racers.

4

 

CCC prohibits the expensive parts in PTE. It can't cost more.

Based on learnings from last year:

  • CCC should have a spec tire – we really only had 3 different tires represented last year anyways
  • a minimum weight – just base it on the heaviest reasonably prepped car
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Want to really even it out ... toss all the car numbers into a hat and have a draw at the beginning of the day ... ;)

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44 minutes ago, Jim Eh. said:

Want to really even it out ... toss all the car numbers into a hat and have a draw at the beginning of the day ... ;)

After 1 or 2 laps it doesn’t matter.

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So can we agree that one of the options we will vote on is:

 

CCC+

Minimum Weight 

Spec Tire

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Makes sense to me. Is it basically between Falken and the $100 tires? If it's Falken would it be 14 or 15?

I think Minimum weight shouldn't be the heaviest car/driver package but a more typical car weight (say 2200 or whatever is sort of standard for an ef with a cage) + 190 for the driver and gear.

Damon

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I continue to recommend #2286. IT3 minimum weight. Easily attainable for rookies and first year builds. It also doesn’t penalize the older race cars built to run in “this class” years past. Not to mention more inclusive for newer civics.

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4 hours ago, Mat said:

I continue to recommend #2286. IT3 minimum weight. Easily attainable for rookies and first year builds. It also doesn’t penalize the older race cars built to run in “this class” years past. Not to mention more inclusive for newer civics.

Min weight 2286lbs sounds like a great place to start.

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12 hours ago, coach said:

Min weight 2286lbs sounds like a great place to start.

Can a 95-2000 civic hit that target easily? 89-95 should be no problem.

 

Quote

Makes sense to me. Is it basically between Falken and the $100 tires? If it's Falken would it be 14 or 15?

 

  • Don ran Hankook RS-3 – the most expensive of the bunch, but they did last him quite a while
  • Westlakes @ $100 per tire, smallest size available is 15
  • Falken Azenis, more expensive but also more size options

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16 minutes ago, JohnnyV said:

Can a 95-2000 civic hit that target easily? 89-95 should be no problem.

 

 

  • Don ran Hankook RS-3 – the most expensive of the bunch, but they did last him quite a while
  • Westlakes @ $100 per tire, smallest size available is 15
  • Falken Azenis, more expensive but also more size options

There are a few members pushing for a lower weight. Somewhere around #2200-2250.

Schteeve is probably best to advise weight for 95-00.

 

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I have a 99 civic hatch I'm slowly prepping for ccc. My understanding is that these year civics are aloud to run vtec to make up for the heavier weight of the car. Is there an option to just set a power to weight ratio limit for the cars. 

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