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    • Jim Eh.

      Annual General Meeting   10/30/2017

      The Winnipeg Sports Car Club invites you to attend the 2017 Annual General Meeting and election of Directors and Officers. 
      Thursday, November 23, 2017     Canad Inns “Boardroom”, 826 Regent Avenue @ Plessis (not the casino).   (more...)
      The Boardroom is down the hall by Tavern United (not the Annex room that is off the Aaltos restaurant). 

      6:00pm
      We have the Boardroom beginning at 6:00pm. Come and join us for dinner. Take food from the Aaltos buffet back to the Boardroom where a server will take drinks orders. The club will pay half the cost of your meal.
       
      7:00pm
      The annual general meeting will start at 7:00pm.    

      Please plan on attending to ensure we have a quorum to conduct the annual club business and elect next years executive.

      Thank you,
      WSCC Executive
CRX Don

For current PTE civic racers – need your input on changes required to reduce costs and create more even competition

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On 1/20/2017 at 9:44 PM, CRX Don said:

Eligibility: All Honda civics (or CRX) from 1988-2000 that would normally compete in PTE. To be eligible for the Civic Club Class cars must be compliant with PTE rules plus meet the following restrictions: 

  • Tires: 180 treadwear or harder DOT tires, line A8 on PT 2017 spreadsheet (NOT lines A1-A7 or A9). Examples of acceptable tires: Falken Azenis RT615K, BFG g-Force Rival, Toyo R1R, Dunlop Direzza Sport ZII Star Spec, Bridgestone Potenza RE070, Kumho Ecsta XS, Yokohama Advan A046 & Neova AD08, Hankook R-S3. Examples of unacceptable tires: BFG Rival S, Bridgestone RE71-R, Maxxis RC-1, Kumho V700, Kumho V720, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup & MPS Cup 2, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa, Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokohama A048.

I have a question about the tire rules.  Are we going to disallow specific tires which meet the minimum 180 treadwear requirement for CCC (line A7)?  There are several new for 2017 200TW street tires, new compounds which narrow the gape between R-Comp track tires and street tires,  The  Falken Azenis RT615K is new for 2017, Toyo, Kumho, Dunlop, BFG, are all releasing new compounds for this year to equal the Bridgestone RE71-R.

The least expensive 200 treadwear tire I have found in my size (205/50-15) is the Bridgestone RE71-R, $112.50.  In the spirit of keeping costs down in CCC, I want to run these.  I'll take the additional PTE points for line A7.  I suspect if we start banning specific tires that meet the treadwear requirement decided on, each season we are going to have to add more to list?

 

 

 

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Really good question, Steve! Short answer is that our CCC rules forbid using the RE71R.

The logic behind the CCC tire rules was to minimize tire expenses, which meant only allowing a real (not just claimed)180 or higher treadwear. At the time the rules were written WMCA regognized that some tires stamped with 200 treadwear were really more like 100, so WCMA increased the prep points accordingly by moving these tires from line A8 to A7 (RE71R werer moved to A7 for 2017). CCC rules also recognize this and say you can't use tires from line A7, so that your tires last longer. To move forward consistenly we would need to keep banning new tire models that are stamped 200 but really aren't.

What I didn't count on was that other tire companies would release new tire models for 2017 that are stamped with 200 treadwear but might behave more like 100, and WCMA would not reclassify these new models in time for the 2017 season. I suppose we could quickly ammend our CCC rules and ban new 200TW models that might wear as quickly as the RE71R. But we would need to get consensus quickly, before anyone buys a set of tires he can't use because that would be the opposite of saving money. Perhaps for 2018 CCC we need to make a rule allowing only tires that have been sold for at least 1 year, which gives the rules a chance to catch up. Or (dare I suggest it) a spec tire for 2018 CCC.

Yes, I hear you about RE71Rs being cheap and good. I had them at the Thanksgiving in 2016. Faster than the Azenis 615K, but wore faster too. So the cost was about equal to the Falkens if the RE71Rs were purchased from Costco. I could never recommend the RE71R as a spec tire for our class (either offically, or unoffically as the optimal go-to choice) because their availability through Costco is hit or miss. If Costco fails to supply RE71Rs you will need to order them from someone else and the price goes way up. So for that reason alone I am glad they are banned from CCC. If it makes you feel any better I am now stuck with a half-used set of RE71Rs that I can't use, so I feel your pain lol.

I invite input from any CCC competitors!

Thanks

- Don

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Further to Steve's comments I did some checking on 180 or higher TW tires that are new for 2017:

Falken: Azenis 615K+ Not many reviews yet, but some say to expect better results in the rain due to a softer compound. So it will likely wear faster than the previous RT615K. Available in 14" and 15". I'll ask the formula vee guys what they think about the new 615K+.

Toyo: Couldn't find any new tires 180TW or higher.

Kuhmo: V700 and V720 are 200TW, but already classified in A7 so not legal for CCC. V720 rumoured to be improved.

Dunlop: They are making a new Z3, but it's not yet available in North America and likely won't be available this summer.

BFG: Rival S 1.5, but rival S are already classified in A7 so not legal for CCC.

Hankook: RS4. Again, not many reviews yet but some say they work well and don't wear too fast. Various 15" sizes, no 14".

 

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I'm selling and running the westlake rs. Which we tried last year and thought were comparable to the azenis. Under $100 bucks utql of 240. Only downer is only 1-size we run in 14 or 15". That's the 1955015 which worked ok last year. I've just ordered 20 and most are spoken for but believe I can get more from the east. Also checked with my azeni supplier and they'll be having the rt615k+. But more. $

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I checked with WCMA and they will not be making any more changes to the PT preparation points for 2017:

Good Afternoon Don,

Tires are also my biggest cost so I understand you concern.

I’m happy to confirm PT  points are set for the season your can use the 2017 form and rules. They will not be changing.

Gary Roberts

 

So it looks like tires stamped 180 treadwear (UTQG) or higher will be allowed in CCC except for Bridgestone RE71R, BFG Rival S, and Kuhmo V720. So this means that the new Azenis RT 615K+ and Hankook RS4 will be allowed in CCC.

Differences in opinion are welcome, but let's put a time limit on the dicussion of April 5 because it's time we all got our tires on order. 

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I did not receive any additional feedback on the tire rules so the rules stand as written.The rules for CCC as discused here are being formalized into our supp regs.

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Rules as discussed on this forum thread are in Appendix A below.

Gary Roberts from WCMA suggested formatting the rules using the same categories as PT preperation points. This makes sense to me.

Where the IT engine rules and PT prep points didn't quite match up some additional explaination was added. The purpose was to grandfather any engines that were previously built to IT specs, and keep all engines within IT specs.

You will notice that in some modifications "will be reviewed in 2018". The point is that if anyone starts spending stupid amounts of money on things like aero, brakes, or super wide tires we will ban these items in 2018. So don't bother.

I also added a ban on dry sump oiling systems at my own discretion. I didn't think anyone would object.

Any comments or concerns please post them here or call me.

 

Thanks

- Don

Appendix A - Honda Civic Club Class (PTE/CCC)

Eligibility:

o    Honda Civics and CRX from 1988-2000, eligible to compete PTE.

o    And meeting the following restrictions: 

 

Tires: Section A,

o    Must comply with Section A8 and,

o    Be greater than 180 treadwear DOT tires,

o    And May not be  BFG Rival S, BFG Rival S1.5 Bridgestone RE71-R, Maxxis RC-1, Kumho V700, Kumho V720, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup & MPS Cup 2, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa, Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokohama A048.

o    Maximum Width may be set for the 2018 season

o    Points must be claimed

 

Weight: Section B

o    Must comply with PTE rules and

§  No non-stock composite panels except for the hood.

§  Repairs using composite materials will be considered on a case by case basis.

o    Points must be claimed

 

Engine: Section C:

o    C4, C10, C22, C23, and C24 are permitted, points must be claimed

 o    C16 is permitted with the following restrictions, points must be claimed

§  Engines may be bored to a maximum of .040 inch over standard bore size. Factory oversize replacement pistons or their exact equivalent shall be used. Equivalent pistons shall provide the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, ring thickness and spacing, pin height relationship, weight, and compression ratio as factory replacement oversize pistons. Piston rings are unrestricted. The fitting of other styles of pistons prohibited and any change in stoke is prohibited

 

o    C18 is not permitted, however Manifold and cylinder head port matching is permitted free of points if

§  No material may be removed further than one (1) inch in from the manifold to cylinder head mounting face(s). Carburetor mounting surface(s) shall not be modified and external dimensions of the cylinder head or intake manifold may not be reduced to facilitate internal porting. Two piece manifolds are not intended to be port matched at their intermediate point.

 

o    C19 is allowed to a limit of 0.5 point compression ratio increase as a no points modification:

·         Any modification that results in increased engine compression ratio (including head shaving or decking block to factory specs)

o    C1-C3, C5- C9, C11-C15 and C17-C21 are prohibited

 

Drivetrain: Section D:

o    D5, and D6 are permitted, points must be claimed

o    D1-D4 and D7-D9 are prohibited

 

Suspension: Section E

o    E3, E5, E7, E9-E11, and E16 are permitted, points must be claimed

o    E1 and E2 (shocks or struts with remote reservoir), E4, E6, E8, E12-E14 and E17-22 are prohibited

 

Brakes Chassis section F

o    All items are permitted, points must be claimed

o    To be reviewed in 2018

 

Aerodynamics Section G

o    All items are permitted, points must be claimed

o    To be reviewed in 2018

 

Rollcage Section H

o    All items are permitted, points must be claimed

 

No points Modifications Section I

o    All modifications allowed Expect D.2 – lightweight flywheels are not permitted.

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I have been out of the loop on this and now I have to get #44 car ready in 16 days or less before my vacation. 

At first read it looks like we're out as i have pallets of used NT01's and a set of 4 new ones left over from two years ago. Who can I call and get the rundown on all of this and what it means? 

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Hi Don and boys, 

Who collects all our 2017 PT calculation spreadsheets? Who is in charge of this? 

Since weight is the most important part of PTE and CCC, are we going to weigh the cars after racing? 

Thanks. 

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Thanks Mat!

Good idea on the scales. I have started asking how we can arrange to have them available. Al is interested too. 

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26 minutes ago, CRX Don said:

Thanks Mat!

Good idea on the scales. I have started asking how we can arrange to have them available. Al is interested too. 

Scales will be at GMP each weekend beginning at noon on Friday.

 

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21 hours ago, chkdsk said:

Hi Don and boys, 

Who collects all our 2017 PT calculation spreadsheets? Who is in charge of this? 

Since weight is the most important part of PTE and CCC, are we going to weigh the cars after racing? 

Thanks. 

You can upload your spreadsheet to WCMA through Motorsportreg.com.  It's the car classification, and number request page.  

Or, email to the address Mat posted.

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Regarding the scales, and this may not be the right thread, are we going to start tech'ing cars after races like we did two years ago? With the new rules being so weight and HP cenctric, we need to check the cars to make sure they are on point. 

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I think we should be aware that we could be scaled at anytime.

The scales were at the track all last season.

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The scales will be there and Bryce has agreed to operate them.  We have to weigh the 1st 5 in each class in the runoff race and we could weigh the front cars in other races as well.

Scott

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Here is a rules change I am proposing for next year's season (2018). We don't need to debate it just yet, but here it is, well in advance.

I think we should acknowledge that some of our older honda parts are getting harder to find, so we need to be more liberal than what the PT rules would technically allow for substitutions. For example, there are several engines that are equivalent to the D16A6 but have a different engine code, like the ZC single cam. Or putting together an engine /  chassis combination from the same generation of honda that honda never produced. The point is to allow better access to parts, but not to allow a competitive advantage with these substitutions. So no you can't build a ringer car that is JDM only spec - it still needs to essentially match what was sold in Canada.

Here is some suggested wording: 

C1 (engine swaps) are permitted but only between engines and chassis of civics of the same generation. Both the engine and chassis must have been originally sold in Canada for the same generation of civic, or equivalent to engines and chassis originally sold in Canada for the same generation of civic. The resulting combination of engine, chassis, weight, and other modifications must be within the limits of PTE and CCC rules.

 

I am not totally happy with that wording yet. Perhaps we should change "engines" to "drivetrains". A list of examples of acceptable substitutions could also be helpful.

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Hey Don, just curious if we might add an acceptable modification. Close ratio gear sets for our cars cost about the same as a final drive with similar effects, and since doing both is an impossibility I figured I'd ask if it may be allowed in the future. Just thought I'd share the idea at least. Let me know your thoughts on this. 

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I've mentioned this to Don directly as well as other racers. I'd like to go back to a weight spec that's attainable for any car to achieve. I suggest we use the former IT3 spec weight of 2286 for the 88-91 hatchbacks so that even the entry level guys are at a competitive weight from day one.

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2 hours ago, Mat said:

I've mentioned this to Don directly as well as other racers. I'd like to go back to a weight spec that's attainable for any car to achieve. I suggest we use the former IT3 spec weight of 2286 for the 88-91 hatchbacks so that even the entry level guys are at a competitive weight from day one.

Yes I agree we should discuss this for 2018. It would be great if everyone in CCC could get their car weighed and be willing to share that information (car weight and driver weight). 

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Here’s a few things that I’d like to see for 2018

 

As I mentioned before a minimum race weight of 2286 for a few reasons (my fat ass) also so that all the cars that were built to IT3 specs can remain competitive as well as people new to the class can easily attain the min weight. 

 

In MY opinion given the research showing that historically CRX’s were penalized we need to address this fairly. (weight)

 

Ideally follow a spec tire rule as do the formula v group. Azenis, Westlake or otherwise. I don’t feel that a TW spec is the best way to achieve linearity. (The performance and price point of the Westlake tires that Super WAYNE can secure for us are worth discussing in my opinion...I’m sure #87 and #200 would agree)

 

Regardless of us agreeing on a spec tire we need to definitely set max tire sizes. How can a 195 compete against a 225?

 

Weighing cars / Tech I understand that workers are at a premium and it’s a hassle...but it is so crucial to us tightening up our group and making every driver feel like they have a chance. Fingers get pointed. Here’s one level that we can tighten up.

 

Camshafts....a huge contention point. We all know this is covered under the DT limitations. This is the big one. If you’re using something non OEM...you’re really not racing. I find it really hard to believe that anyone is actually doing this. We should have some way of encouraging any car who seems to have a considerable edge to have to change their cam to a known oem “Marked” cam. Frankly I’m sick of the speculation here and would like  to get past this. This is something that can be done at the track. Let’s find a way to put this speculation to rest.

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Most of us weighed our cars in 2017 and I think we should compare the results so we can see what's really attainable for a minimum weight, and so we can see the weight differences within CCC. I will go first: my CRX weighed in at 2137 pounds with me in it and 1/4 tank of gas. I weigh 225 lbs. My car was probably the lightest in CCC.

I have no objection to a spec tire for 2018. Let's just make sure we choose something that is cheap and available. I used the Westlake for half of race four and all of race 5 and I liked them. I wouldn't recommend the Hankook RS4 because I had chunking issues with them and the RS4s were not as good as the Weslakes in the rain. Azenis are good too and they are available in 14" sizes. If we can agree on a spec tire it might automatically limit the width as well. 

FYI - Just to be clear the rules for CCC do not allow non-oem camshafts.

I think we should also discuss some permitted parts substitutions for CCC. For example, engines that are equivalent to the D16A6, but are more available and cheaper. The point is to allow more access to cheaper parts without giving anyone a competitive advantage.

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On 2017-10-21 at 2:42 PM, CRX Don said:

Most of us weighed our cars in 2017 and I think we should compare the results so we can see what's really attainable for a minimum weight, and so we can see the weight differences within CCC. I will go first: my CRX weighed in at 2137 pounds with me in it and 1/4 tank of gas. I weigh 225 lbs. My car was probably the lightest in CCC.

I have no objection to a spec tire for 2018. Let's just make sure we choose something that is cheap and available. I used the Westlake for half of race four and all of race 5 and I liked them. I wouldn't recommend the Hankook RS4 because I had chunking issues with them and the RS4s were not as good as the Weslakes in the rain. Azenis are good too and they are available in 14" sizes. If we can agree on a spec tire it might automatically limit the width as well. 

FYI - Just to be clear the rules for CCC do not allow non-oem camshafts.

I think we should also discuss some permitted parts substitutions for CCC. For example, engines that are equivalent to the D16A6, but are more available and cheaper. The point is to allow more access to cheaper parts without giving anyone a competitive advantage.

In regards to spec tire. 

I will personally be vouching for the Westlake. Even after investing in many sets of 14” rims I think that these West Lake tires are hard to beat at $100ish each. They are not available in 14”. When and if we do choose a spec tire I’m hoping not to have a variance in aspect ratio/sizing. 

Car number 5 - 2230LB* - 250LB - 1/4 tank

edited...Steve slapped me

Edited by Mat

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On 10/20/2017 at 9:38 PM, Mat said:

Here’s a few things that I’d like to see for 2018

 

Here’s my thoughts belowI feel where we are heading with CCC, is Gimli Spec Honda.

Quote

As I mentioned before a minimum race weight of 2286 for a few reasons (my fat ass) also so that all the cars that were built to IT3 specs can remain competitive as well as people new to the class can easily attain the min weight. 

Improved Touring rules favored 88-91 Honda Civics. The minimum weights made no sense (88-91 Civic = 2286#, 88-91 CRX 2630#, 96-00 Civic 2430#).

What I found as I removed weight from my car, it became much more enjoyable to drive.  It accelerated better, stopped better, cornered better, there was less brake and tire wear.  I’m at 2180#, and don’t want to put weight back into my car.   Everything on my EK Civic is bigger and heavier than the EF, including the 1.75” cage tubing.   I’ve spent virtually nothing on lightweight parts.  My only weight reduction expense was $60 of lexan for the rear hatch, a motorcycle battery, and whole bunch of my time dissecting. 

Quote

In MY opinion given the research showing that historically CRX’s were penalized we need to address this fairly. (weight)

NASA rules say add +7 points just for showin up with a CRX (bring a Miata = +14), so the penalty is there, it’s just different.

Quote

Ideally follow a spec tire rule as do the formula v group. Azenis, Westlake or otherwise. I don’t feel that a TW spec is the best way to achieve linearity.

Spec Honda

Quote

Regardless of us agreeing on a spec tire we need to definitely set max tire sizes. How can a 195 compete against a 225?

Maybe it works, maybe not, might depend on the car HP and track configuration, 225 tire and wheel is heavier x4.   Ask AL, he claims to be faster on 195-14, than 205-15.

Quote

Weighing cars / Tech I understand that workers are at a premium and it’s a hassle...but it is so crucial to us tightening up our group and making every driver feel like they have a chance. Fingers get pointed. Here’s one level that we can tighten up.

I don’t think it’s a secret between the GMP family, scales are at the track every weekend, we can weight ourselves on Friday or after racing, Don can bring his beer.  It is a hassle for workers – yes.

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