CRX Don

For current PTE civic racers – need your input on changes required to reduce costs and create more even competition

42 posts in this topic

I am starting a new thread so Honda Civic racers currently in PTE can discuss options on how to reduce the cost of road racing in our class with new or additional WSCC rules that apply to our civics only. In a previous thread and in other communication most civic racers in PTE indicated they are in favour of this concept, and none were outright opposed. I am looking for opinions from all civic racers currently in PTE.

Why? PTE is WSCC’s entry level road racing class, but there have been some criticisms lately: costs are too high, and the class is too dominated by civics. Some current and potential new racers are discouraged. We need to discuss how we can reinvigorate the spirit of an entry level class with cheaper cars and cheaper race weekends. Evenly matched cars on a lower budget is the goal.

Who? Participation in this thread is intended for current civic racers in PTE. This is the group that has skin in the game and has experience racing a civic so this is the (only) group I need to hear from. If you are racing something else in PTE don’t worry – the likely outcome will actually slow down the civics and make your non-civic racer more competitive. The additional restrictions won’t apply to your non-civic race car.

How? This thread is to discuss how to achieve the above goals. We all have our own ideas, so let’s share them on this thread so we can view and discuss what we are thinking. To start us off, here are a few ideas I have heard so far:

  • ·         The biggest ongoing expense is tires. Softer tires like Nitto NT01 last only one weekend because GMP’s track surface is so abrasive. Harder tires (treadwear = 200) last longer and keep costs down. Do we want a spec tire or a limit on tire softness?

  • ·         Create a club class for civics, like a spec series with limited modifications.

  • ·         Keep the regional class (PTE) but impose extra restrictions on modifications for civics.

  • ·         Identify the really expensive parts that are currently being used on some PTE civics racing in USA and proactively restrict them.

I would like us to pursue these changes cooperatively. I want any new rules to be fair – no rules designed to exclude, penalize or help any particular competitor. And we all need to be ready to accept rules changes that are good for our racing class and WSCC.

Please chime in with your comments and ideas!

Thanks!

- Don

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Agreed tires seem to be the biggest expense. all run the same spec. tire 200+ that can be agreed upon.

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For ya'll consideration and discussion:

Club sponsor, SpeedFactor, has provided these options:

205-50 R15

Nankang NS-2R (180 treadwear) 

$129ea (Group Buy ~$110ea)

Nankang NS-2R (120 treadwear)

$134ea (Group Buy ~$115ea)

(NB: these are current 2016 prices for discussion. New price schedules out in February. I also forgot to ask if they include tax or not because sometimes they quote with all taxes incl.)

 

These are the cheapest sticky tires tires they can get (have other brands too) and they buy these by the pallet in that size so they generally have stock but for the sake of conversation, they and their Canadian supplier ran out of my 17" size in the 120 TW late Aug. 

NS-2R (180tw and 120tw)

12ss.jpg

 

Edited by nopistons
clarifying the tire models. NS2R has 2 varients, 120 and 180. The NS2 is NOT the same and is a 300TW

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Although I'm not a current racer; I am a past racer  and will be a future competitor in my civic hopefully in 2017.

I agree with the tire restrictions suggested. I am cheap and slow so reducing cost by restricting the super fancy go faster parts is good with me too since I don't buy them anyways. 

I am looking forward to racing in a pack again, I raced a lot with a 4 car class in the old IT2 class and it's basically racing by yourself after 2 laps. Separating the civics in to a spec class and leaving a handful of non civics in PTE sounds like less door to door action to me. My most memorable races are with cars that are not Civics. 

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Nanking... who knew? I found some reviews here: http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Nankang/NS2R_2.htm 

Another alternative is the good old Falken Azenis. Last year I paid $160 all in for mine, but maybe you can find them for less. These tires last well and have a reputation for being easy to drive - a good characteristic for our entry level class. They are also one of the few tires that come in 14". See pricing and tire comparison: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Falken&tireModel=Azenis+RT615K&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=96HR4RT615K&tab=Specs

Other tires that have potential as a spec tire are: Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec, Kumho Ecsta V720, Hankook Ventus R-S3. Does anyone have experience using these at GMP?

Any other ideas? Or tires to avoid? 

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How many civic racers still use the 14" size? The NS-2 and the NS2-R come in 14" as well, with the NS-2 having a 205 section width.
I used the NS-2R this past season with decent results (yes, I know, not a Civic). Much better than the 200 tw tires I was using.

On my Civic, I've run the Hankook RS-3's, and they are OK for the first few heat cycles, then they turn hard.
I've also tried the Proxyes R1R (140 tw) and once they get hot, they turn greasy and shred. The good tread is only a few 32nds deep.

I'm sure some of the AS racers will have comments on the others.

Nitto makes a 200 tw (NT-05) that is cheaper than the Azenis and performs better (IMO), unfortunately not available in 14".
Potenza RE71R is another 200 tw option but now you're close to the NT-01 price (Same with the Star Spec) and not available in 14". I've read these turn hard after a few cycles too.
Rivals are an option that seem to be a big hit in US AS. They are middle-ground in price between the NT-05 and the NT-01. Have ok reviews from the GR racing crowd. Again, sans 14".

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Thanks for your input on tires, Darin!

I think Mat, Henri, Al, Steve and I all use 14" rims. Usually cheaper and perhaps faster than 15s.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks everyone for your feedback on this forum or via pm. I have put together a proposal for a Honda Civic Club Class for the 2017 Road Race season based on what I have heard. It is based on PTE rules, but with the following restrictions designed to save costs:

Tires: 180 treadwear or harder DOT tires, line A8 on PT (NOT lines A1-A7 or A9). The Chumpcar forum has good info on different tire choices based on actual experience. I am afraid that suggesting a specific tire will allow endless debate with no agreement.

Engine: Only the same modifications as IT allows, but optionally allow the choice of stock cam or the colt cam that about half the field is running. Air duct to the air intake or air filter reloated to draw in air from outside the engine compartment is also permitted since most competitors have already done this (and it's cheap). These are the engine modifications that everyone currently has, and the engines seem to last a long time. Aftermarket ECUs (C3) will also be banned to keep costs down, but chipped stock ECUs are OK. You still need to take PT points for all the modifications you do to the engine. The IT rules are here: http://www.wcma.ca/new/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2014-Technical-Regulations-Race.pdf with authorized engine modifications starting on page 20.

Suspension: We should ban shocks with remote reservoirs before someone uses them (E1 and E2). And while we are at it we should also also ban cockpit or driver adjustable sway bars (E8) because that sounds expensive too. No metallic bushings per E22 are allowed either.

Weight: No new restrictions on weight, but ban costly materials used to reduce weight like composite body panels. Do we want to ban lexan windows also?

Eligibility: All honda civics (or CRX) from 1988-2000 that would normally compete in PTE.

I welcome your comments, suggestions, improvements, disagreements, arguments, or alternate proposals. I would like to put it to a vote on January 20.

Edited by CRX Don
No aftermarket ECUs, metallic suspension bushings per E22. Air inlet outside engine compartment OK. Link to IT rules. Model year 1988-2000. Tires per rule A8 (NOT A1-A7 or A9)

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Posted (edited)

Here are Scott McDonald's comments regarding classing etc:

 

"Here's what I'd like to see happen.  A racer with a Civic should be free to choose whether to run PTE or the "Club Class".  I also think we have to have all Civics comply with the WCMA spec (PTE).  For the club class some added restrictions would apply.  If enough of you guys can agree then write the spec.  People can vote with their entry form.
 
This also means that all Civics will accumulate WCMA Regional points in the PTE class.  WCMA will insist on that.
 
I think your next step is to write the restrictions for the new class and get them out there.  You can ask for an indication of who plans to enter the class but you won't really know until the first race.  When you write it up can you specify what the old IT engine specs were so everyone including newcomers knows what they are building to.  Also have you thought about what years of Civic this should cover.
 
I'd like to see this settled as soon as possible so racers have time to prepare."
 
I hope that clarifies how the classing is intended to work!
- Don
Edited by CRX Don
Comments from Scott corrected

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FYI - not everyone is in favor of allowing an alternate cam. It's the expense of the cam itself, the need to tune the car for it, and potentially shorter engine life.

On the other hand, I am trying to be as inclusive as possible and not create rules that would make competitors take speed parts of the cars that they just bought last year.

I would like to hear from others - what are your insights, preferences etc on cams for the spec civic class?

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If we do have a club class wouldn't it be easiest to follow IT3 rules and designate and treadwear min?

I would be all in for that.

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We are close to following the IT3 rules for the engine, with the exception of cold air ducting to the intake and an alternate colt cam. We are more restrictive than IT3 on suspension and tires for the club class.

Speaking of cams: I have heard from several who are not in favor of allowing the colt cam, only the stock cam. I am inclined to change the engine spec to dissallow the colt cam for our January 20 vote. If there are those who want the colt cam as an option in the civic club class please speak up on the forum or via PM.

Speaking of tires: I have tinkered with the above formula a few days ago, and I want to be sure you notice the change. It is still 180 or higher treadwear, but with the added limitation of no tires from line A7 in the PT schedule. NASA has recognized that some 200 treadwear tires (like Bridgestone RE71R) are really more like 100 treadwear tires and has reclassified these cheater 200 treadwear tires on line A7 with tires like the NT01 where they belong.

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Open head light for air intake is good. , no cam is great and 200 treadware tires sounds good too. 

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Looks fine with me Don.  Although I would not ban weight reduction materials.  My car is significantly heavier than the older Civics.  I've added lexan to the rear hatch, and may also replace the rear quarter windows.  I'm still 150LBS above my minimum weight, so when I buy my next $300 parts car with a carbon fiber hood, I might like to use that also.

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You are right Steve - used composite hoods off kijiji are cheap so I will allow those. I just don't want anyone to spend thousands on carbon fibre doors etc, so composite parts will be limited to the hoods only.

Regarding lexan: I asked for opinions and you are the only one to speak up (so far), so unless there is a last minute outcry against it we will allow lexan also.

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Last minute question: should we allow lightweight flywheels?

FYI - the PT rules consider the flywheel to be part of the drivetrain (not engine), and PT rules allow a lightened flywheel without any points taken for it. The IT rules consider the flywheel part of the engine and require the flywheel to be stock. So according to what I have written above the flywheel needs to be stock for civic club class. But is this what we want?

Pros: Some of the PTE cars already have lightweight flywheels, they are cheap on kijiji (or a stock flywheel can be lightened inexpensively), they are a bit of work to take out if you already have one in.

Cons: Keeping the stock flywheel fits the spirit of less expensive racing, a lightened flywheel is a bit of work to put in if you don't already have one, a good lightened flywheel is expensive if you cant find a used one. 

I would like to hear what you think about this...

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It's Jan 20 so I have put it to a vote. The email I sent out to all potential Civic Club Class competitors that I know of is shown below. If you intend on racing a 1988-2000 civic or CRX in PTE or Civic Club Class next summer but didn't get the email you can still vote by sending me a PM or email (89dscs@gmail.com).

"Most of you have been watching and participating in the development of a set of rules for the new Civic Club Class for the 2017 road racing season. The purpose of this new class is to lower the costs of racing, and create more even competition. Creating a Civic Club Class splits our former PTE class into two separate classes for WSCC championship points. You can choose to classify your car in either the new Civic Club Class or the regular PTE class. However, for WCMA regional championship points the Civic Club Class will be considered part of PTE.  The rules for Civic Club Class are shown below. I would like you to vote by responding to me at 89dscs@gmail.com to tell me if you intend on racing in the new Civic Club Class, or racing in the regular PTE class. I'll publish the results I have in one week with the total who intend to race in each class. 

  • Eligibility: All Honda civics (or CRX) from 1988-2000 that would normally compete in PTE. To be eligible for the Civic Club Class cars must be compliant with PTE rules plus meet the following restrictions: 
  • Tires: 180 treadwear or harder DOT tires, line A8 on PT 2017 spreadsheet (NOT lines A1-A7 or A9). Examples of acceptable tires: Falken Azenis RT615K, BFG g-Force Rival, Toyo R1R, Dunlop Direzza Sport ZII Star Spec, Bridgestone Potenza RE070, Kumho Ecsta XS, Yokohama Advan A046 & Neova AD08, Hankook R-S3. Examples of unacceptable tires: BFG Rival S, Bridgestone RE71-R, Maxxis RC-1, Kumho V700, Kumho V720, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup & MPS Cup 2, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa, Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokohama A048.
  • Engine: Only the same modifications as IT allows. Cam must be stock. Flywheel must be stock. Air duct to the air intake or air filter relocated to draw in air from outside the engine compartment (headlight vent) is permitted. Aftermarket ECUs (C3) not permitted, but chipped stock ECUs are permitted. PT points must be taken for all the modifications to the engine. The IT rules are here: http://www.wcma.ca/new/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2014-Technical-Regulations-Race.pdf with authorized engine modifications starting on page 20. 
  • Suspension: All permissible PT suspension modifications with appropriate points taken except: No shocks or struts with remote reservoirs (E1 and E2). No cockpit or driver adjustable sway bars (E8). No metallic bushings (E22). Weight: Must comply with PTE rules, but no non-stock composite panels except for the hood. Repairs using composite materials will be considered on a case by case basis."
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The votes are in. Out of the 12 potential competitors I contacted:

9 were in favor of the Civic Club Class

2 did not respond (although one of those two indicated in an earlier email that he would likely enter CCC).

1 was undecided

0 were opposed.

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Wayne (Sledontar) has some related tire info worth considering:

hi. Don, myself & Greg would want to compete in the civic club class as we intend on running the cheapest alternate tire anyways that we tried for the last 2 events lat year. the Westlake RS which we had just as much luck with as the azenis & way cheaper. I can sell these to club members for about $91.00 a piece which is way cheaper than I can buy or sell azenis for. {would have to recheck pricing this year as things can rise as you know} but I won't be running b/stones or nitto's etc. as way beyond my budget for the life. as I can buy 6-8 of the westlakes for price of 4 others & as you know gimli shreds tires no matter which.  the only unfortunate part with the Westlake was that NO 14's were available & the only size in 15"' was the 1955015 which actually works better for us than the 2055015 we were using. slightly better clearances & little better gearing with this tire.  this tire was made for drifting and available in most popular drift sizes, 16,17,18  as not to many cars using our sizes anymore.  cheers for now. any questions feel free to email or call 204-392-0024   Thanks. Wayne  P.S google pic of the tire {nice looking}, Greg had wear results etc. as I wasn't there the first weekend they were on and he was driving and impressed
 
FYI - Group/Club pricing could be available if Wayne pre-orders 60 or 70 tires.
Edited by CRX Don

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Placing a comment for Speed Factor Racing...

They can potentially offer a bigger group discount on the 180 TW NS-2R's if we order a pallet of them (around 40 tires).

If you want in on the deal of 205-50-15's or 195/50-15 (possibly sub $100 ea) the order needs to be secured on or before Feb 25.

they can handle the mount and balance too if you have ultra light racing rims or rims that need to be mounted backwards.

short notice, yes, but I just got wind of it today.

No obligation...just passing the memo.

Edited by nopistons
clarifying the tire models. NS2R has 2 varients, 120 and 180. The NS2 is NOT the same and is a 300TW

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Hmmm... has me thinking.

Remember that you need the 180TW ones. 120TW NS2R would not be legal in CCC.

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Hey Darin,

Super interested in this, but is the group buy limited to civic racers or open to all club members?

Thanks (and thanks for organizing this). Cool either way.

 

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Technically, it's open to whomever wants in. If you happen to have the same tire size as the group, it will be a better price but we can see about what the prices are if they are different.

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Slightly off topic... but thought CCC members would be interested.

Tire rack is having a sale on the brake pads that most of us use. Not a bad deal if you are planning a trip to the US and can take advantage of their free shipping within US and avid the brokerage. 

HAWK 
BLUE 9012 TRACK ONLY PADS

  • FRONT 
  • Material: Track Compound 
  • Manufacturer Part #: HB218E.583 
  • $US98 

 

***Make sure this is the right pad for your car because there are two different pad styles for the EF civic and 2nd gen CRX*** 

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