Nasa classing

[Al Marcoux]

After a season of road racing under the new nasa classing I've come to realise that this was a huge mistake.

Wscc still has 3 classes. Nothing changed here except the spending.

AB still has four 3 car classes?  like wth? I thought nasa rules was supposed to fix that.

What has changed is the amount of money that the drivers in pte class had to spend to stay competitive. 

I'm very disappointed in this new system.

In order to stay up front now ,  R comp tires are needed. At one set a weekend at gmp that's not economical at all.

New weight specs. Add power cost money then add weight to compensate costs money. Go with lightening the car instead of adding power ? To meet minimum spec you need cf hood trunk and doors .  That costs more than adding power.

The PTE class is now 3 seconds faster than last year's IT3 class.  this does not make for good cheap racing anymore.

Now the cars are more expensive to build.

I know racing cost money but this year was rediculous.

PTE  is gt racing without slicks and tube frames.

We need to limit the power, tires and weight. 

Light small cars don't need to be lighter.

Nasa is about spending money not better racing.

WSCC is the real grass roots racing. NASA is not and never will be.

Not sure why wcma did this but what a waste of time and money.

Bring IT3  back now!

 

 

 

[Mat]

The future of WSCC RR at GMP is under threat from many angles right now. It's has potential to become unviable for many people who struggle to afford grassroots racing. Classification notwithstanding.

[nopistons]

The NASA classing system works. It creates an avenue to which all cars can race in a specific class of the owners choosing.
My car is an excellent example. Under old rules, is an IT2 car which seems ridiculous as its a blob with wheels. It would be slower than that of IT3 cars of yesteryear.
However under the new system, it's classed as PTF in its current configuration, which if you look at the finish order, fits perfectly.

NASA does what you want...it does limit HP and weight. each PT class has a max weight/HP ratio. For example: PTE is 16.50 lbs per hp.

What I see in your case is that there is more competition than before and you need to step up your game to be competitive...which is what everyone, including you, wanted! Do you not think that more competition would improve your/others diving skill that may have contributed substantially to your 3 seconds? Or are you at the top of your game?

Take note that many of our fellow racers are not green anymore. Their skill level is up to par with the pack leaders. Tire choice aside, using 50% used, undersized rubber isn't going to keep you ahead anymore! (Assuming you are ignoring the usage of R-Comps is not new with NASA classing) Either way, I see the number of W's being shared among the group and driving harder with greater competition will inevitably cost more, not just in tires, but other consumables like brakes and fuel.

 

However as Mat has alluded to, who knows what the future holds...

[SVOXR4STi]

[Al Marcoux]

10 hours ago, nopistons said:

The NASA classing system works. It creates an avenue to which all cars can race in a specific class of the owners choosing.
My car is an excellent example. Under old rules, is an IT2 car which seems ridiculous as its a blob with wheels. It would be slower than that of IT3 cars of yesteryear.
However under the new system, it's classed as PTF in its current configuration, which if you look at the finish order, fits perfectly.

NASA does what you want...it does limit HP and weight. each PT class has a max weight/HP ratio. For example: PTE is 16.50 lbs per hp.

What I see in your case is that there is more competition than before and you need to step up your game to be competitive...which is what everyone, including you, wanted! Do you not think that more competition would improve your/others diving skill that may have contributed substantially to your 3 seconds? Or are you at the top of your game?

Take note that many of our fellow racers are not green anymore. Their skill level is up to par with the pack leaders. Tire choice aside, using 50% used, undersized rubber isn't going to keep you ahead anymore! (Assuming you are ignoring the usage of R-Comps is not new with NASA classing) Either way, I see the number of W's being shared among the group and driving harder with greater competition will inevitably cost more, not just in tires, but other consumables like brakes and fuel.

 

However as Mat has alluded to, who knows what the future holds...

We all stepped up the game. The whole PTE class has moved up 3 seconds. I'm not the only one .

Instead of 1.10 lap times we're up to 1.07 for the front guys. The slower guys in the class went from 1.13 to 1.10.  The gap between fast and slow guys is the same except this years gap cost more. 

I used 3 sets of new nt01 and 2 sets of new azenis. 4 sets of new pads and 4 sets of new rotors. So 20 new tires,  a set of tires and brakes per weekend not a bunch of used under sized tires as you stated. 

VS last year 12 azenis and 2 sets of pads and rotors.

This is what 3 seconds a lap looks like. This is not affordable racing.  Wait til your car hits 1.07s. You'll be eating at least a set of 17 inch R comps per weekend possibly more cuz heavier. 

How much are 17 inch  R comps?  I don't even want to know what that will cost you for the season. 14 or 15 inch are way more affordable. 

Nasa has cost us all in the pocket book.

Fuel. 3 or 4 cans for a weekend from chudds.

My van eats more fuel than my racecar and I intend on keeping it that way. 

The competition as in the top 4 or 5 are all doing the same thing spending more  to go faster.  We're all trying to keep up with the Joneses. Eventually we'll all be racing 30 to 50 k toilets that aren't worth more than scrap value.  More dollars less reliability .  Last year we couldn't add power. The top guys were maxed out and the only upgrade was rubber.  This year was unlimited.  Unlimited .  anything goes .   I see big problems here.

I  won 1st in class by a good gap.  The gap is too big.   I won the most races too. Probably too many. We need more drivers winning .

Invert the top 6 like ice racing.

The old civics are too light . The ratio is out. 

Your vehicle is still in the wrong class  PTF max your car is way to heavy and being top heavy not helping for PTE.  Not saying this to insult you at all. You brought a knife to a gun fight. I only hope and want you and your car to race together with the rest of the cars because that is the whole point to race together in the same class. 

The old Hondas need to be heavier so the bigger heavier newer cars can compete with.

How bout the vr6 vw. That thing should pull on the civics on the straight np. But it doesn't because it's a bit of a tank.  yet it's classed as PTC or D.  Oops.

We need to have a lower class instead of PTE we can call it PTS. The S is for slow.

The faster we go the more it costs.

Just because we're going faster doesn't  mean better racing. 

The racing was better and cheaper last year. 

As for competition. I only want more competition. Competition is what racing is. Against time or persons.  I think you'll  find that I help more drivers get faster so they can win. This is called helping the competition.  I hope one day those people I helped, will kick my butt. Winning isn't everything but having a car and skill that can help you win is key because if you do win one, now you know you CAN do it again. 

 

[nopistons]

8 hours ago, Al Marcoux said:

...

1)

Wait til your car hits 1.07s. You'll be eating at least a set of 17 inch R comps per weekend possibly more cuz heavier. 

How much are 17 inch  R comps?  I don't even want to know what that will cost you for the season. 14 or 15 inch are way more affordable. 

...

2)

Invert the top 6 like ice racing.

...

3)

Your vehicle is still in the wrong class  PTF max your car is way to heavy and being top heavy not helping for PTE.  Not saying this to insult you at all. You brought a knife to a gun fight. I only hope and want you and your car to race together with the rest of the cars because that is the whole point to race together in the same class. 

...

4)

The faster we go the more it costs.

Just because we're going faster doesn't  mean better racing. 

Direct answers:

1) I had a car that was 1:07:1's on the "outside" configuration that was not a whole lot lighter. I have a clear understanding on how many tires I will need and will base my requirement off that...20 tires??? Well, we'll see but I'd like to think not!

Just for conversation, costs for 17" r-comps aren't as high as you'd think. For NT01's as of this morning, US Retail prices are less than $20 difference from your 205 15" to my 255 17".
If I use local, off-branded models, they are $138 each CDN!

2) I don't disagree. I've commented on this before.

3) My car IS way too heavy. No question. This is partly my fault. I didn't go Freddy Kruger on it and hack out the car where I should have. But, it's the car we want and I can live with that. It will be faster...one day!

4) This is also true, and going faster builds skill, which leads to better racing.

[coach]

I have to put my 2 cents in here....lol

I was 1 step away from getting a track car and joining you guys at GMP, however with the new changes this year it is now highly unlikely.

It used to be affordable, I don't see that being the case anymore.  Having to spend more money is not the answer to getting more racers interested, in fact it is quite the opposite.

Lets face it, not one of you guys is ever going to make this a career.  It is a hobby, and when a hobby gets too expensive people stop doing it and you can't attract new blood.

This is very disappointing to me, as I WAS really interested.

If this goes back to the way it was I will reconsider, for now it's a done deal for me.

 

[SVOXR4STi]

I found the new rules helped my car.  IT3 works well for 89-91 Civic’s, but perhaps not for others.  I tried to run my car in IT3, it’s not competitive with the additional 340lbs for the class.  This year I was able to remove 300lbs from the car, and I don’t have carbon fiber anything. 

I think PTE is 3 seconds faster for two reasons.  We removed the ballast block required to add weight, and gutted more of the interior, making the cars lighter.  Second, there has also been a driver improvement.  I know I improved this season, we are each pushing each other, resulting in closer racing and faster lap times.  Al you mentioned you needed R-Comps to stay out front because the rest of us are not making the mistakes we once did.    

Yes the lap times are faster but I see the cars are more equal.  Look at the three wide drag races we had down the straight at GMP this year, or the starts with a pack of cars nose to tail.  I don’t see where there was less competition than previously.  The points between 2^nd and 5^th, came down to the last race of the last weekend to sort the order out.  PTE allowed more cars in the same class, without splitting the group into IT3,IT2, and wherever Darin and Sarah’s SUV fit.

Basically the exact same cars that ran IT3 last year ran PTE.  The only real change was the allowance for less weight.  The tire rules for IT are wide open.  There is no make it fair factor there, those running the dot R-Comp tires in PTE ran the same tires in IT3 and did not have to take a weight penalty for it.  Perhaps we need to look at a cheap spec tire for Gimli due to the cheese grater effect, but that's conversational.

I hope this new classing does not discourage new racers. We all want this to continue growing.  I don’t see the car costs being much different than previously.  You could spend just as much or more in IT. (eg: $400 suspension, $4000 suspension, both equal under IT rules)  I’ve about $2500 in my junk yard racer, with most of my own labour.  My biggest expense is tires.  I used eight tires this season, one set of pads, one set of rotors, and a bunch of 87 octane pump gas.  Made every event and every race.

The NASA rules seem to give you options, spend money on HP adders, fancy suspension bits and brakes.  Or, get the saw and bathroom scale out. Or perhaps a combination of both.  For new racers on a budget like most of us, there is competitive racing other than the front.  Show up with a cheap car that’s under powered, does not handle well, and I think you will learn more, and have just as much fun. 

Steve

[CRX Don]

I agree with Al's sentiments on taking some kind of action to reduce costs and create better competiton. Here are my thoughts:

Rule changes: Didn't we already ask WCMA if we could keep IT3 and they wouldn't allow it? So if WCMA won't help us with this we need to do it ourselves. The classes (or allowable modifications) used to accumulate points for the WSCC championship could be different than the WCMA points. No one at WSCC really cares about the WCMA points anyway. Those WSCC trophies are the real prize! More thoughts on this to follow...

PTE or IT3?: I think both rule sets have some strong points to limit spending. IT3 limits what you can do with the engine and I like that. But IT3 leaves the tire choice open to any DOT tire and that could make tire esculation even worse. At least PTE rules penalize you for more expensive rubber.

Possible WSCC spec PTE tires: Great idea! We keep talking about this one but have never reached a conclusion. But maybe we should address this in a seperate thread since we all have lots of opinions.

Possible WSCC spec on PTE weights: I suggest that we outlaw expensive lightweight bits like CF or lexan for a WSCC-only PTE points race. As for minimum weights, this is a topic for more discussion. We need to determine a realistic minimum weight that could be met on a budget.

Possible WSCC spec on PTE engines: The IT3 rules worked just fine here. Kept costs down and reliablity was good.

Who would the WSCC modified rules affect: Only honda civics and CRX in PTE. Others in PTE would be free to do as they choose within WCMA PTE rules to accumulate WSCC PTE points. 

Why some honda racers will think my proposal sucks: 1. Modifying the car to make it faster is part of the fun and more restrictive rules spoil this. 2. Or, I have already spent the money modifying my car and now you expect me to pay again to unmodify it and make it...slower? 3. Or, I doubt I could meet the minimum weight. For those in 2 or 3 maybe there is a way of accomodating you in a WSCC points ruleset (for example, heavier cars can use a certain cam - this worked for me in karting). For those in #1 that's very cool, but sorry to see you leave PTE.

Idea to make PTE more competitive: Allow competitors to cheat all they want... until they get a 1st, 2nd or 3rd place finish. Then they need to be rules compliant for the next race weekend. We kinda do this already on a case-by-case basis.

Don

[CRX Don]

Let me share my experience with the PTE rules this year, like Steve did, since it might be helpful.

At the end of 2015 I saw some IT3 cars grow R-compound tires and get faster. For 2016 I made the choice to keep using Azenis, and make no performance modifications other that whatever lightening I could do for cheap and putting on a stright pipe to fix the low hanging muffler. So my strategy was to use cheap tires on a lightweight car. My car weighed in at 2170 (including my 220 pounds) in July, and by taking out the headlights and using a lightweight battery I estimate that my weight was 2140-ish for race for 4 where my car was in the high1:08s. In the first four races and several practice days I used six Azeni tires, so lots of money was saved there. For race 5 my Azenis were toast so I bought some RE71Rs (Costco price $129). The RE71Rs let me keep up better in the corners but after one race weekend they are about 60% used up. Some people say that the RE71Rs overheat, but it wasn't a problem in October, lol. I used 4 sets of brake pads this year (I think I used 3 the previous year) but I was trying harder too.

I wonder if we might be able to save some money next year on a group buy for tires (like a spec tire), and brake pads? I like the effort that has already begun on a tire sponsor - let's see where it goes.

Hope that info helps!

- Don

[SVOXR4STi]

1 hour ago, CRX Don said:

My car weighed in at 2170 (including my 220 pounds) in July, and by taking out the headlights and using a lightweight battery I estimate that my weight was 2140-ish for race for 4 where my car was in the high1:08s.

- Don

 

In IT3 your car is a fatty like mine.  I just looked up the minimum weight for a CRX, it's 2630lbs, that's 344 more than Al, both of you on the same tires.  That's my beef with the IT rules, unless you have a 89-91 Civic the numbers don't compute.

I'll all for keeping costs down, and agree with Al there for sure.  I just don't think going back to IT rules is the answer. 

 

 

[nopistons]

Going back to ITx isn't going to happen so we can all put that away and move on.

6 hours ago, coach said:

It used to be affordable, I don't see that being the case anymore.  Having to spend more money is not the answer to getting more racers interested, in fact it is quite the opposite.

You can still build a cheap car if you can do most of the work yourself. Without adding consumables or peripheral safety gear, I'm in the $4k range with a 2010 car. No one said road racing was cheap, but it can be done on a budget similar to membership type golfing!

 

Thumbs down on spec tire. We will not come to an agreement as to which tire to use, and will likely benefit the Civics/CRX's. We must move away from catering to a specific car and leave the door open for different vehicles.

[CRX Don]

3 hours ago, nopistons said:

Thumbs down on spec tire. We will not come to an agreement as to which tire to use, and will likely benefit the Civics/CRX's. We must move away from catering to a specific car and leave the door open for different vehicles.

The spec tire and other suggested limitations was meant only for the civic and crx. The intent is to use a cheaper tire for the spec, which will only slow the civics and crx making it easier for different types of vehicles to compete. Everyone benefits.

[coach]

I am glad to hear from some of the other drivers about this, I would like to hear more in regards to tire use this year.

I know racing is expensive, I expect and accept that.  When a new guy like me hears about how many tires you guys had to use to be competitive this year, I have to take a step back.  If I did join you guys next year I would use a cheap tire until I felt I needed the better rubber to be somewhat competitive.  I know it takes seat time to get better, and it takes years to get that seat time.  But at some point I would hope be somewhat competitive and that's when it becomes really expensive on a continuous basis. 

I think you guys really need to take a look at this and consider how it affects attracting new drivers to the sport.

$800-$1000 each and every race weekend is not affordable in most peoples opinion.  Your just making it more of a rich man's sport.

What about a Tread wear min ? say a 200 tread wear tire ?

Just my thoughts and opinions guys

[nopistons]

40 minutes ago, CRX Don said:

The spec tire and other suggested limitations was meant only for the civic and crx. The intent is to use a cheaper tire for the spec, which will only slow the civics and crx making it easier for different types of vehicles to compete. Everyone benefits.

The current rules allow for all of this in the points checklist. Same rules for everyone and every car.

 

20 minutes ago, coach said:

I think you guys really need to take a look at this and consider how it affects attracting new drivers to the sport.

$800-$1000 each and every race weekend is not affordable in most peoples opinion.  Your just making it more of a rich man's sport.

What about a Tread wear min ? say a 200 tread wear tire ?

Just my thoughts and opinions guys

Use whatever tire you want. I've had good success with cheap, local off-brand 180 & 100 treadwear tires. 200 treadwear is a good start. Lots of options in brands and sizes. In my racing, unless I have a damaged tire, 5 tires from new will get me through the entire season...even on my fastest car!

I suppose if you add it all up, it could be $1k per race weekend...but that is still a high budget.

WSCC road racing is the cheapest place for road racing in North America!

after running the school for number of years now and discussing with new would-be racers, there are other large barriers to this sport in WSCC. Unfortunately it's the hard ones to tackle like habits, culture and politics.

[coach]

5 tires for an entire season, I don't see how that would work.  Aren't they going to be cooked after 1 maybe 2 race weekends ?

 

[Al Marcoux]

Maybe it's time for the club class as Don said .  We could make our own rules blending pte it3 and some other rules.

This would allow the odd stragglers to be able to run in the same class such as Yogi in the vr6 and the green rx7. 

We don't need wcma points races. 

[Al Marcoux]

5 tires lol. 

[Mat]

3.5 events this year 10 new tires and and handful of "leftovers" 3+ sets of Pads and Rotors.....nowhere near the front of the pack. 

 

5 tires....I'd be all over that

[nopistons]

10 hours ago, coach said:

5 tires for an entire season, I don't see how that would work.  Aren't they going to be cooked after 1 maybe 2 race weekends ?

Yes 5 tires! I've never used more than 6 and that was because i picked up a screw and sliced one. You are guaranteed to use one up a weekend. Then rotate for the next race. 

Treadwear, Car set-up and driving style are direct factors in tire wear. And regarding that, my thought process is vastly different than some of my fellow racers.

Just remember, you can drive your car as hard as you want. The throttle isn't on or off. You don't need to win to have fun and join in on the excitement, and it can be done on a shoestring budget. However, if you want to be up front, and stay there, you have to open your wallet a little more. This is the racers conscious, or perhaps in some cases, unconscious decision! You can do tire or brake management by changing your driving style and trying different things out on the track.

 

[coach]

11 hours ago, Al Marcoux said:

5 tires lol. 

LMAO

[coach]

2 hours ago, nopistons said:

Yes 5 tires! I've never used more than 6 and that was because i picked up a screw and sliced one. You are guaranteed to use one up a weekend. Then rotate for the next race. 

I am sorry, I just don't see using 5 tires in a season and be anywhere competitive regardless of ones ability on the track.

If this really is the case, then your times must fall off as the season wears on ?  There is no way you could be as fast at the end of the season as you were in the beginning if you used the same tires all year.

[Jim Eh.]

12 hours ago, Al Marcoux said:

5 tires lol. 

NP. Just a bit of a firm ride.

[nopistons]

Quote

If this really is the case, then your times must fall off as the season wears on ?

Oh for sure. Perhaps I'm at one end of the spectrum where I don't necessarily have the "need" to win every race and budget myself accordingly. Things may change but right now, that is how I feel. This also doesn't make it wrong, and neither is Al for his 5 sets!

20 tires a season, so four a weekend, means your burning $800 (or more) in rubber an event. For me, that is hard to justify.

 

Maybe the answer isn't to spec a tire but maybe how many you get a season!

[CRX Don]

14 hours ago, nopistons said:

 

Hi Darin,

I am intrigued with with something you said, Can you provide a few examples of of what you meant by "cheap, local off-brand 180 & 100 treadwear tires"? Perhaps we are not being open-minded enough with our tire choices. Your information could be helpful!

5 tires? Maybe, but not if you are running at the front in PTE these days. FYI - when I was starting out in the 1990s I used 5 yokohama A032Rs per season. These days I am pushing the car harder and used 6 Azensis (200 treadwear) in the first 4 races and practice days, and running near the front. In dollars that works out to about $250 per race weekend - not terrible.

In race 5 I used grippier tires, but they also wore out faster. For once I was able to keep up in the corners which felt good! But did I have more fun? No, not really. I enjoyed each race weekend equally. So if your goal is to enjoy the speed, the competition, and the skill building that road racing provides please remember that spending more won't necessarily help you achieve those goals. Spend as little as you can get away with for the desired amount of fun.

Not only is WSCC road racing at GMP cheaper than at other tracks, but it's also a fun and friendly group to race with. It's also a safe track -  no blind corners and if your screw up there's (almost) nothing to run into. Not like other tracks that put up big concrete barriers to "protect" you, lol wth. Racing at GMP is awesome!

[coach]

19 minutes ago, CRX Don said:

 

5 tires? Maybe, but not if you are running at the front in PTE these days. FYI - when I was starting out in the 1990s I used 5 yokohama A032Rs per season. These days I am pushing the car harder and used 6 Azensis (200 treadwear) in the first 4 races and practice days, and running near the front. In dollars that works out to about $250 per race weekend - not terrible.

 

Know that's what I am talking about - $250 a weekend is completely acceptable

2 hours ago, nopistons said:

 

20 tires a season, so four a weekend, means your burning $800 (or more) in rubber an event. That is hard to justify.

Maybe the answer isn't to spec a tire but maybe how many you get a season!

20 tires a season is a real problem, no one wants to spend that much to be competitive, so prevent it by limiting the tread wear to 200 rather than limiting the number of tires.  This would help control cost a bit better and maintain safety is regards to using a dead tire because you can't have anymore for the season.

[nopistons]

See there in lies an issue...200 treadwear tires has little penalty in the rules where 100 has a higher penalty.

run whichever tire you want and take the penalty for it.

it evens the playing field.

[CRX Don]

 

That's what the rules say, but we are dissatisfied with the result. The point of this thread is that by allowing any choices available within PTE we have unexpectedly created a spending race in PTE. This is not consistent with the spirit of an entry level class in WSCC. We want the entry level class to have lower costs to enable new racers to join more easily, and to have a place for experienced racers to compete more economically. That's why I have proposed the idea of additional restrictions for civics within PTE racing with WSCC. The intent is to have closer and cheaper competition in PTE not just among the civics but with other types of cars in PTE too.

How to do this needs more discussion. I have made some suggestions as a starting point, but I am only one vote. We really need to hear from the other PTE civic racers (or potential civic racers). Do you like the concept of additional restrictions on civics like harder tires, minimum weight, or restricted engine modifications? What are your suggestions for how to do this? Do these proposed restrictions threaten to make your current PTE car ineligible for PTE? - I don't want to exclude anyone who is currently in PTE.

I have said enough for now. Al, Jordan, Clint, Steve, Mat, Johnny, Henri, Greg, Wayne, and any new PTE civic racers please speak up.

[nopistons]

My last comment on this as it continues to go nowhere except in circles...

 

Don you asked about cheap tires: SpeedFactor in town sells Nankang NS2R's in 180 and 120 TW for very reasonable prices. He has some 100's but we're sold out and I didn't get a brand.

[coach]

16 hours ago, nopistons said:

My last comment on this as it continues to go nowhere except in circles...

Why does it matter if it's your last comment ?

Are you the final word on this ? Is it up to you and no one else ?

We live in a democracy not a dictatorship ! I think you guys should be going by what the majority wants and not just one person. 

Not trying to offend you, but you make it seem like it is written in stone