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  1. 4 points
    I found some time to have a thought about Club Class. I'm not completely sold on the spec tire idea. I think it would work if every car was the same, running a true spec class, but we are not that. I would suggest the following three options. 1- The current NASA rule set, exactly as written, running in class PTF. For most PTF would allow a total of 19 modification points, current CCC competitors may be required to remove modifications. 2- Club Class which follows the NASA rule set, but simply limits the points allotment for PTE. (no arbitrary minimum weight, NASA includes base or competition weights for each competitor). 3- No change, NASA rules, full PTE points. $$$ Proposal: Create a Club Class which reduces the NASA points allotment. Reducing the points allowance would eliminate the purchase of expensive motor mods, there is simply no points allowance for it. It solves the issue of unrealistic competition weight, there is no longer unused points available to apply drastic weight reduction. Maintaining the current NASA rules would allow for a more inclusive club class, hopefully a larger group, other makes and models would "fit". Rather than a strict spec class, there is room for some modification, you can tinker, but need to be very selective as your points allotment is limited. If everyone currently in CCC uses a base class from NASA of PTF. This allows a points allotment of 39 to move from bottom of PTF to the top PTE. Everyone should have the WCMA/NASA spreadsheet used to class their car. What if we limit the points total to a maximum of 30? Of which only 11 may be used in PTE class. You would get your full allotment of 19 to use in PTF, at which point you are bumped up one class to PTE where you are allowed a further 11 points. If your car is classed by NASA with a base of PTG (it's a heavy under powered slug), you would use the 19 points for PTG, 19 for PTF, and 11 for PTE. Below I built a model around the CRX Si ('88-'91), base weight is 2174, 205mm tire size with the following modifications. I think the standard setup for all the Honda's with small variations. I set a minimum competition weight of 2174lbs, chosen because it is already assigned by the NASA table of vehicle weights for CRX. If you don't have a CRX and can't get to 2174, you then have a few weight reduction points to use elsewhere. No Club Class car would be allowed a competition weight below 2174lbs. I suspect actually requiring a set lower limit would not be required, as there simply will not be excess points available to apply. Honda CRX Si 88-91 Base Class - PTF Asterisk Points +7 (because you showed up with a CRX, we don't like you) I think NASA rules give CRX +7, because base weight is 117lbs less than 89-91 Civic, 89-91 Civic is allowed to remove 117lbs using a points allotment of +8. A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2174 - Min Comp Wt 2174 = 0 lbs reduction = 0 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C22 - Modification, porting, or replacement of the BTM exhaust manifold or header(s) (includes any/all other exhaust and catalytic converter modifications) +5 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 28 Honda Civic Si 89-91 Base Class - PTF A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2291 - Min Comp Wt 2174 = 117 lbs reduction = +8 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C22 - Modification, porting, or replacement of the BTM exhaust manifold or header(s) (includes any/all other exhaust and catalytic converter modifications) +5 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 29 Honda Civic HB 96-00, Classed as Wt/HP Base Class - PTF A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2350 - Min Comp Wt 2174 = -176lbs reduction = 13 points D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 29 Apply to Spec Miata... Base Class - PTF Asterisk Points +14 (because Miata's are awesome, but everyone hates you, here's some points) A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2185 - Min Comp Wt 2300 = 0 lbs reduction = +0 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C23 - Any modification to the BTM exhaust piping and/or catalytic converter (includes muffler modification or replacement) +3 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 Total modification points = 30 Apply to 2010 Toyota Matrix Base Class - PTG/PTF Asterisk Points +7 A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2770 - Min Comp Wt 2480 = 290lbs reduction = +19 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C22 - Modification, porting, or replacement of the BTM exhaust manifold or header(s) (includes any/all other exhaust and catalytic converter modifications) +5 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 30
  2. 3 points
    I guess I'm the most vocal defender of CCC at this point. Let's swap the content for CCC CCC prohibits the expensive parts in PTE. It can't cost more. Based on learnings from last year: CCC should have a spec tire – we really only had 3 different tires represented last year anyways a minimum weight – just base it on the heaviest reasonably prepped car
  3. 2 points
    Yes the car count is low and Yes there are guys/girls rumbling about "are we going to have another race weekend" I will tell you now that we will have the next scheduled race weekends. If the guys and girls want to race, then we'll race. Yes it does cost the club money when there isn't enough competitors although who cares, do you guys and girls want to race? If so then register and we will have a race. We can't attract anyone if we're cancelling weekends, I'm not cancelling weekends. I will take the heat from the Exec on the budget for the loss as long as there are racers. To all racers and volunteers; the race weekend is on next weekend no matter what. Thanks.
  4. 2 points
  5. 2 points
    I agree with what you have said about PTE and PTF but I want to say that I will unmodify if that's what it takes to run with the rest of the field. Hopefully more competitors will feel the same. In my opinion it makes the most sense to take something off my car (free or nearly free) to run with a larger group. More fun and cheaper.
  6. 2 points
    Looking at Steve's calculation examples it seems apparent that most cars will be challenged to all go PTF without removing modifications. Obviously running PTF is possible for all our cars however I strongly suspect many won't "un modify" their car by removing a LSD or going back to stock suspension. This will inevitably break the group into some PTF and some PTE. Then comes the aspect of being PTE with 39 points to spend (for the civics) which will result in a broad range of options that inevitably costs much more money. I'd be curious to know many cars last year were running at the max points allowed. I like the idea of the structured points and hp/weight classing system developed by some very knowledgable and experienced people at NASA. I do however suspect our group is just stuck between the 2 classes. One a bit too hot and one a bit too cold.... For these reasons my vote would be to fully utilize the NASA classing however with a limited points cap (10?) for PTE. (Option 2)
  7. 2 points
    Wow Schteeve. Great work, as always. I have to disagree on your options a bit however. I feel option 1 and 3 are basically the same. That being said I’d like to consolidate them into one. There’s another option that’s keeps coming up and I feel we need to offer it as a voting point. I propose the options as follows. 1- The current NASA rule set, exactly as written, members can choose either performance touring group and we dissolve CCC for 2018. It allows any car to compete within the guidelines and lay the groundwork for more inclusive racing. 2- Club Class - which follows the NASA rule set, but simply limits the points allotment for PTE. (no arbitrary minimum weight, NASA includes base or competition weights for each competitor) Club Class not limited to Honda Civic. 3- CCC, Minimum weight, Spec tire. I would appreciate cooperation with our group to have this decided for our next meeting on Thursday evening. If anyone has any points to make or feels that this needs to be delayed please make yourself heard ASAP. I plan on offering a vote in person at the meeting. If you will not be attending you can contact me via pm to cast your vote.
  8. 2 points
  9. 2 points
    What? Icecross style event (driving on a frozen pond, on a track carved out of the snow, in an attempt to get around the course in the quickest times possible)Where?Lake Shirley - Off Murdock road, it's the water ski pond in the summer time --> Google Maps Link: https://goo.gl/maps/64jLxrbogHP2When?10:45 am - Driver's Meeting --> Location: TBD (We'll just congregate together)11:00 am - 4:00 pm - Ice-cross Lapping --> Let's rip!We will be doing rotations with the other two groups, so it will run in the following order: 15 min. studded, 15 min. rubber-ice, 15 min. Icecross, repeatHow Much? Entry Fee: $60 --> We pay what the ice racers pay, plain and simple What Do I Need? 1. A current SNELL “M” or “SA” helmet - SA is strongly encouraged - SA helmet mandatory for all vehicles with factory or aftermarket installed roll protection 2. WSCC Membership --> See here: http://forums.wscc.mb.ca/index.php?/topic/11103-2018-membership-process-msr/ - There is an option to purchase a daily membership for $10; see the online registration or you can purchase at the event 3. Winter Tires --> all season tires are not permitted 4. Register for the event on MotorsportReg (make sure to sign up under the Icecross saturday section --> https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/2018-wscc-ice-race-event-2-lake-shirley-winnipeg-sports-car-club-021260 5. Bring a bucket to put all your belongings in (Rubbermaid tote, for example), as you will need to remove all loose items from your vehicle before you head out on the track. 6. Vehicle must be dimensionally wider than it is tall (same restriction as Autocross) - trucks are permitted as long as they measure wider than they are tall 7. Vehicle must have functional tow points (either factory locations that are intact and easily accessible, or aftermarket hooks in place) How Do I Sign Up? Follow the links above, or text/call me at (204) 294-0286 with any questions/concerns. To answer some common questions: 1. No, you do not need any special modifications to your vehicle. You can show up with your daily-driver (Toyota Tercel, or EVO X, doesn't matter), or your full blown race-car. This is about having fun no matter what you're in, and challenging your skills as a driver. The only requirement is that the vehicle be wider than it is tall (identical rules to Autocross) 2. Do I need a WSCC membership? Yes, this is mandatory for insurance purposes 3. Where can I get a helmet? You can either borrow one from a friend (lots of people in the city that do Autocross, or HPDE that have purchased helmets in the past. OR, go to SpeedFactor or similar speed shops in the city and pick one up for yourself 4. Am I going to have fun? Um, heck yes. This event allows you to do everything you already do when we get a snow storm, but without the worry of being charged for it. 5. Will I become Ken Block / Colin McRae once I've completed this event? No... But if you keep getting involved and participating, then you absolutely have a chance! This event puts a lot of smiles on the faces of participants, so come on out and join the fun!
  10. 2 points
    I need to ask a question to whoever it is that is driving this; can you tell me in one or two sentences what your goal is for the CCC? Is it to cut costs? As we spent a PILE of money last year just to compete in CCC. Is it to increase competition? I already stated in a previous post that watching the CCC races last year was boring and nowhere near as tight as the competition was the year before pre-CCC. What is our goal for doing all this back and forth for all these posts for the CCC? What are we trying to solve that already hasn't been dealt with by an international association and their calculations in the spreadsheet? Someone clue me in on our single goal and I'll comment properly. Thanks.
  11. 1 point
    I’m there for the race, missed the deadline for knojne registration.
  12. 1 point
  13. 1 point
    Seriously? Only 4 cars in 2 classes? Was it because I accidentally registered my Datsun and scared people off? Cmon people lets get with the program. It's gonna be a great day for racing on Sunday.
  14. 1 point
    Good to hear we are one step closer to racing as a group. This is the reason I got a crx! Several racers have already indicated their preference towards PTF however is it possible for others to weigh in to confirm that this will be the predominant group? I'm starting my car from scratch so I need to know what to build or budget for. I'll throw my hat in for PTF as having only 12 penalty points to play with will keep it simple.
  15. 1 point
  16. 1 point
    41" long 10° or 20 ° bend at 18" 1-1/2" .095 wall DOM 58.66 ea
  17. 1 point
    Hi Mat. I'm still not sure I should be having a vote on this but if I have one I would say option 1. Scott
  18. 1 point
    OK I had some good discussions and thought about it a bit. I'm going with Option 1 and will run my car in PTF. Damon
  19. 1 point
    I continue to recommend #2286. IT3 minimum weight. Easily attainable for rookies and first year builds. It also doesn’t penalize the older race cars built to run in “this class” years past. Not to mention more inclusive for newer civics.
  20. 1 point
    Hey Mike, Yes, studded winter tires are allowed for lapping. DOT street legal studded tires to be specific, and it doesn't matter if they have been studded afterwards, or factory studded, assuming the studs used were street legal standard studs
  21. 1 point
    Winnipeg Sports Car Club Ice Racing Winnipeg, Portage la Prairie and Gimli, Manitoba, Canada
  22. 1 point
    Let’s take this opportunity to train the next generation of volunteers with open arms. The road race crew is looking forward to 2018. A new outlook on how important our volunteers are and how to compensate the massive commitment they make coming out to Gimli and dealing with the various extreme conditions they endure. Scott & Mat
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