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  1. 4 points
    I found some time to have a thought about Club Class. I'm not completely sold on the spec tire idea. I think it would work if every car was the same, running a true spec class, but we are not that. I would suggest the following three options. 1- The current NASA rule set, exactly as written, running in class PTF. For most PTF would allow a total of 19 modification points, current CCC competitors may be required to remove modifications. 2- Club Class which follows the NASA rule set, but simply limits the points allotment for PTE. (no arbitrary minimum weight, NASA includes base or competition weights for each competitor). 3- No change, NASA rules, full PTE points. $$$ Proposal: Create a Club Class which reduces the NASA points allotment. Reducing the points allowance would eliminate the purchase of expensive motor mods, there is simply no points allowance for it. It solves the issue of unrealistic competition weight, there is no longer unused points available to apply drastic weight reduction. Maintaining the current NASA rules would allow for a more inclusive club class, hopefully a larger group, other makes and models would "fit". Rather than a strict spec class, there is room for some modification, you can tinker, but need to be very selective as your points allotment is limited. If everyone currently in CCC uses a base class from NASA of PTF. This allows a points allotment of 39 to move from bottom of PTF to the top PTE. Everyone should have the WCMA/NASA spreadsheet used to class their car. What if we limit the points total to a maximum of 30? Of which only 11 may be used in PTE class. You would get your full allotment of 19 to use in PTF, at which point you are bumped up one class to PTE where you are allowed a further 11 points. If your car is classed by NASA with a base of PTG (it's a heavy under powered slug), you would use the 19 points for PTG, 19 for PTF, and 11 for PTE. Below I built a model around the CRX Si ('88-'91), base weight is 2174, 205mm tire size with the following modifications. I think the standard setup for all the Honda's with small variations. I set a minimum competition weight of 2174lbs, chosen because it is already assigned by the NASA table of vehicle weights for CRX. If you don't have a CRX and can't get to 2174, you then have a few weight reduction points to use elsewhere. No Club Class car would be allowed a competition weight below 2174lbs. I suspect actually requiring a set lower limit would not be required, as there simply will not be excess points available to apply. Honda CRX Si 88-91 Base Class - PTF Asterisk Points +7 (because you showed up with a CRX, we don't like you) I think NASA rules give CRX +7, because base weight is 117lbs less than 89-91 Civic, 89-91 Civic is allowed to remove 117lbs using a points allotment of +8. A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2174 - Min Comp Wt 2174 = 0 lbs reduction = 0 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C22 - Modification, porting, or replacement of the BTM exhaust manifold or header(s) (includes any/all other exhaust and catalytic converter modifications) +5 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 28 Honda Civic Si 89-91 Base Class - PTF A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2291 - Min Comp Wt 2174 = 117 lbs reduction = +8 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C22 - Modification, porting, or replacement of the BTM exhaust manifold or header(s) (includes any/all other exhaust and catalytic converter modifications) +5 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 29 Honda Civic HB 96-00, Classed as Wt/HP Base Class - PTF A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2350 - Min Comp Wt 2174 = -176lbs reduction = 13 points D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 29 Apply to Spec Miata... Base Class - PTF Asterisk Points +14 (because Miata's are awesome, but everyone hates you, here's some points) A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2185 - Min Comp Wt 2300 = 0 lbs reduction = +0 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C23 - Any modification to the BTM exhaust piping and/or catalytic converter (includes muffler modification or replacement) +3 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 Total modification points = 30 Apply to 2010 Toyota Matrix Base Class - PTG/PTF Asterisk Points +7 A8 - DOT-Approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200 +2 Section B - WEIGHT REDUCTION Base Weight 2770 - Min Comp Wt 2480 = 290lbs reduction = +19 points C4 - Modification of the BTM air intake/box +1 C22 - Modification, porting, or replacement of the BTM exhaust manifold or header(s) (includes any/all other exhaust and catalytic converter modifications) +5 D5 - Added limited slip differential or welded/locked differential +3 E3 - Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 E5 - Non-BTM or modified coil springs, bump stops, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2 E7 - Add, replace, remove, or modify anti-roll bars (swaybars - front, rear, or both). +2 E9 - Replace, modify, or remove control arms +4 Total modification points = 30
  2. 3 points
    I guess I'm the most vocal defender of CCC at this point. Let's swap the content for CCC CCC prohibits the expensive parts in PTE. It can't cost more. Based on learnings from last year: CCC should have a spec tire – we really only had 3 different tires represented last year anyways a minimum weight – just base it on the heaviest reasonably prepped car
  3. 3 points
    I sent this to Don last year to help him come up with his ruleset. I did a bit of research based on a regional PTE champion selling his class-winning CRX a few years ago. I am against an all-out PTE ruleset because of the parts listed below: The prices were sourced last year, so they may be inaccurate now. The total is approximately $5500 CAD (based on cheap tires, no dyno tune, no machine shop costs, no shipping costs) to purchase the parts on this wishlist. Everything will also wear out much faster because we're going faster, so be prepared to buy more wear parts (Hoosier a6 will last a couple races? a day?). Some racers are already changing their Hawks every weekend, better bring two sets now. By contrast, last year I swapped in a $150 MPI salvage motor and raced on it for 3 weekends (it's still alive and strong). All I did was change the oil and bolt-ons. I'll take a $150 single day swap over a $5000 build (+ donor engine) any day of the week.
  4. 2 points
    Yes the car count is low and Yes there are guys/girls rumbling about "are we going to have another race weekend" I will tell you now that we will have the next scheduled race weekends. If the guys and girls want to race, then we'll race. Yes it does cost the club money when there isn't enough competitors although who cares, do you guys and girls want to race? If so then register and we will have a race. We can't attract anyone if we're cancelling weekends, I'm not cancelling weekends. I will take the heat from the Exec on the budget for the loss as long as there are racers. To all racers and volunteers; the race weekend is on next weekend no matter what. Thanks.
  5. 2 points
  6. 2 points
    I agree with what you have said about PTE and PTF but I want to say that I will unmodify if that's what it takes to run with the rest of the field. Hopefully more competitors will feel the same. In my opinion it makes the most sense to take something off my car (free or nearly free) to run with a larger group. More fun and cheaper.
  7. 2 points
    Looking at Steve's calculation examples it seems apparent that most cars will be challenged to all go PTF without removing modifications. Obviously running PTF is possible for all our cars however I strongly suspect many won't "un modify" their car by removing a LSD or going back to stock suspension. This will inevitably break the group into some PTF and some PTE. Then comes the aspect of being PTE with 39 points to spend (for the civics) which will result in a broad range of options that inevitably costs much more money. I'd be curious to know many cars last year were running at the max points allowed. I like the idea of the structured points and hp/weight classing system developed by some very knowledgable and experienced people at NASA. I do however suspect our group is just stuck between the 2 classes. One a bit too hot and one a bit too cold.... For these reasons my vote would be to fully utilize the NASA classing however with a limited points cap (10?) for PTE. (Option 2)
  8. 2 points
    Wow Schteeve. Great work, as always. I have to disagree on your options a bit however. I feel option 1 and 3 are basically the same. That being said I’d like to consolidate them into one. There’s another option that’s keeps coming up and I feel we need to offer it as a voting point. I propose the options as follows. 1- The current NASA rule set, exactly as written, members can choose either performance touring group and we dissolve CCC for 2018. It allows any car to compete within the guidelines and lay the groundwork for more inclusive racing. 2- Club Class - which follows the NASA rule set, but simply limits the points allotment for PTE. (no arbitrary minimum weight, NASA includes base or competition weights for each competitor) Club Class not limited to Honda Civic. 3- CCC, Minimum weight, Spec tire. I would appreciate cooperation with our group to have this decided for our next meeting on Thursday evening. If anyone has any points to make or feels that this needs to be delayed please make yourself heard ASAP. I plan on offering a vote in person at the meeting. If you will not be attending you can contact me via pm to cast your vote.
  9. 2 points
    New poster is available for download. Thank you Dylan Sabatini! To save it locally, click on the image and make sure it is full screen (may have to click more than once) then right click on it and "save as" then save to your local hard drive. RGB High Res 300 dpi 3.5MB: ** EDITED to fix Jared's name *** WSCC 2018 ICE RACING RGB HI-RES 300dpi 8.5x11 PRINT.pdf
  10. 2 points
  11. 2 points
    What? Icecross style event (driving on a frozen pond, on a track carved out of the snow, in an attempt to get around the course in the quickest times possible)Where?Lake Shirley - Off Murdock road, it's the water ski pond in the summer time --> Google Maps Link: https://goo.gl/maps/64jLxrbogHP2When?10:45 am - Driver's Meeting --> Location: TBD (We'll just congregate together)11:00 am - 4:00 pm - Ice-cross Lapping --> Let's rip!We will be doing rotations with the other two groups, so it will run in the following order: 15 min. studded, 15 min. rubber-ice, 15 min. Icecross, repeatHow Much? Entry Fee: $60 --> We pay what the ice racers pay, plain and simple What Do I Need? 1. A current SNELL “M” or “SA” helmet - SA is strongly encouraged - SA helmet mandatory for all vehicles with factory or aftermarket installed roll protection 2. WSCC Membership --> See here: http://forums.wscc.mb.ca/index.php?/topic/11103-2018-membership-process-msr/ - There is an option to purchase a daily membership for $10; see the online registration or you can purchase at the event 3. Winter Tires --> all season tires are not permitted 4. Register for the event on MotorsportReg (make sure to sign up under the Icecross saturday section --> https://www.motorsportreg.com/events/2018-wscc-ice-race-event-2-lake-shirley-winnipeg-sports-car-club-021260 5. Bring a bucket to put all your belongings in (Rubbermaid tote, for example), as you will need to remove all loose items from your vehicle before you head out on the track. 6. Vehicle must be dimensionally wider than it is tall (same restriction as Autocross) - trucks are permitted as long as they measure wider than they are tall 7. Vehicle must have functional tow points (either factory locations that are intact and easily accessible, or aftermarket hooks in place) How Do I Sign Up? Follow the links above, or text/call me at (204) 294-0286 with any questions/concerns. To answer some common questions: 1. No, you do not need any special modifications to your vehicle. You can show up with your daily-driver (Toyota Tercel, or EVO X, doesn't matter), or your full blown race-car. This is about having fun no matter what you're in, and challenging your skills as a driver. The only requirement is that the vehicle be wider than it is tall (identical rules to Autocross) 2. Do I need a WSCC membership? Yes, this is mandatory for insurance purposes 3. Where can I get a helmet? You can either borrow one from a friend (lots of people in the city that do Autocross, or HPDE that have purchased helmets in the past. OR, go to SpeedFactor or similar speed shops in the city and pick one up for yourself 4. Am I going to have fun? Um, heck yes. This event allows you to do everything you already do when we get a snow storm, but without the worry of being charged for it. 5. Will I become Ken Block / Colin McRae once I've completed this event? No... But if you keep getting involved and participating, then you absolutely have a chance! This event puts a lot of smiles on the faces of participants, so come on out and join the fun!
  12. 2 points
    I need to ask a question to whoever it is that is driving this; can you tell me in one or two sentences what your goal is for the CCC? Is it to cut costs? As we spent a PILE of money last year just to compete in CCC. Is it to increase competition? I already stated in a previous post that watching the CCC races last year was boring and nowhere near as tight as the competition was the year before pre-CCC. What is our goal for doing all this back and forth for all these posts for the CCC? What are we trying to solve that already hasn't been dealt with by an international association and their calculations in the spreadsheet? Someone clue me in on our single goal and I'll comment properly. Thanks.
  13. 2 points
    Awesome input everyone. I think we should try and choose the 3 most popular opinions and put it to vote at or before the next meeting January 18th. How does this sound?
  14. 2 points
    As a racer who is about to join in on the fun this summer with a Honda CRX, I would like to throw my 2 cents into this debate.... I like the idea of keeping things simple and cheap within a "spec" classing system (however the feedback from last year's CCC seems to indicate that the car to car competiveness was inconsistent for a true spec class) I like the idea of having a classing system that is open to "non-Honda" cars mainly to attract possible more entries and larger class group. The idea of using the PTE class but with a limited number of modification points seems promising. The idea of having 10 points to "spend" in PTE might keep things in check however I can't help but think this would allow a lot more variations of modifications and weight between cars so I suspect will also be more challenging to keep the performance consistent like a true "spec class". Having said that, the result might in fact create a tighter and larger field. The biggest expense throughout the season (assuming you don't blow poo-poo up) is with tires. It is also likely the biggest performance influence between true spec cars. If the goal is truly to even the playing field then in my opinion an obvious decision is to run a spec tire. Pretty much every form of spec racing runs an agreed upon tire for a reason - to keep an even playing field. Whether you like how the tire performs or not it will be the same for everyone. Lets pick one and be done with it. Let's decide this soon...my CRX's engine was replaced some time ago with stock single cam ZC engine and I am hoping to run it as it is. I have lots of work still to do to prep it for its new life as a road racer however I do need to plan out the end game for it. I guess to sum up my opinion: - if we can generate an acceptable car count to have a true "Honda spec class" I am onboard since that is the car I now have and I don't want to make a lot of modification decisions...I have a Datsun for that. -if we want a class that is flexible (yet still cheap) then lets look at the "limited points" PTE classing system. That's my 2 cents plus an extra nickel thrown in. Mike #88
  15. 2 points
    My suggestion is CCC with a minimum weight, spec tire, and list of allowable drivetrain substitutions. Limiting points might be OK too. To be more specific: Minimum weight: if we only fix one thing in CCC it should be a minimum weight rule since this generated the most complaints. The known weight range of cars in CCC for 2017 was from 2137 (me) to 2230 (Mat) with driver and 1/4 tank of gas. I think Jordan's car weighs close to Mat's car too. So to make things even we would all need to weigh 2230, including CRXs. Spec tire: how about Westlake RS? Cheap, easy to drive in the rain, reasonable wear. Allowable drivetrain substitutions: Legalize what competitors have been doing for a while by using an equivalent but cheaper motor that has no performance advantage. For example, ZC instead of D16a6. We need to develop a list of what's OK. Limiting points: This is an alternative to the current CCC restrictions. To summarize what Steve said in an earlier post - 10 points bumps you up a class instead of the usual 19. So 88-91 civics would be allowed 20 prep points, and the previous CCC restrictions would be lifted. This change would allow non-civics to also compete in our class, which would be nice. But it wouldn't ban some of the expensive things that CCC disallows. If we go with limited points instead of previous CCC restrictions I recommend having a spec tire as well to help control costs.
  16. 2 points
    Can we start up this discussion again so that new and existing racers will have ample time to prepare.
  17. 1 point
    I’m there for the race, missed the deadline for knojne registration.
  18. 1 point
  19. 1 point
    Seriously? Only 4 cars in 2 classes? Was it because I accidentally registered my Datsun and scared people off? Cmon people lets get with the program. It's gonna be a great day for racing on Sunday.
  20. 1 point
    Good to hear we are one step closer to racing as a group. This is the reason I got a crx! Several racers have already indicated their preference towards PTF however is it possible for others to weigh in to confirm that this will be the predominant group? I'm starting my car from scratch so I need to know what to build or budget for. I'll throw my hat in for PTF as having only 12 penalty points to play with will keep it simple.
  21. 1 point
  22. 1 point
    41" long 10° or 20 ° bend at 18" 1-1/2" .095 wall DOM 58.66 ea
  23. 1 point
    Hi Mat. I'm still not sure I should be having a vote on this but if I have one I would say option 1. Scott
  24. 1 point
    OK I had some good discussions and thought about it a bit. I'm going with Option 1 and will run my car in PTF. Damon
  25. 1 point
    I continue to recommend #2286. IT3 minimum weight. Easily attainable for rookies and first year builds. It also doesn’t penalize the older race cars built to run in “this class” years past. Not to mention more inclusive for newer civics.
  26. 1 point
    Hey Mike, Yes, studded winter tires are allowed for lapping. DOT street legal studded tires to be specific, and it doesn't matter if they have been studded afterwards, or factory studded, assuming the studs used were street legal standard studs
  27. 1 point
    I think we need to keep as many cars in the same class as possible. It doesn’t make sense to have 10-12 nearly identical cars running around in 3 different classes. A spec tire seems like a good idea. If you look at something like Formula Vee or TCB all the cars run the exact same tire in the same size. If we don’t pick a spec tire we’ll end up there eventually once we figure out which is the fastest tire allowed in the class. So we might as well just pick one. Why don’t we just fine tune ccc? Are there a lot of people clammoring to join the class with a different car? We had 8 civics last year and will add a couple more this year. If you want to race ccc go get a Civic, they’re cheap their reliable and there’s a good knowledge base about them in the club. i think as a club with limited members we should get as many cars as possible in one class and have some real racing fragmenting the cars into multiple classes seems counter productive. Look what happened with Formula cars, people started bringing f2000 and continental cars and vee drivers switched and now open wheel is pretty much dead. Ccc had its first year last year and it wasn’t perfect as some have pointed out but it did get a lot of people into one class. Now we have the opportunity to fine tune the rules and build on the concept. My 2 cents Damon
  28. 1 point
    I fear this will be a vote of a.) Inclusivity or b.) Affordability. If the vote goes in the direction of Inclusivity (embrace PTE as written and kill CCC), I can see myself – and other budget sensitive racers – just adding weight or removing some parts to drop into PTF. If the majority of CCC does that, the current notcivics will all be PTE, the current CCC field will just be the PTF (+ yogi) field – and the notcivics will just be racing each other again. Nothing really changes except for our supregs and the decals on our cars.
  29. 1 point
    I want to make 1 thing perfectly clear, I am a beginner in every sense of the word. This will be my first year road racing. My opinions here are based on getting into the sport without having to break the bank to do it. I know it's going to cost to play, as I have said before. I really don't know enough about the PT class rules, but the jist of PTE sounds like you either spend money to go faster, or spend more money to make it lighter. Derrick aka coach
  30. 1 point
    May I ask why the spec tire isn't something you would want? I'm all for the point threshold idea, but I would still want the tire restrictions to keep the costs under control..
  31. 1 point
    If PTE is too heavy on the pocket book, why not make it an open PTF class then? As a PTE racer, interested in fair racing with you folks, I can't be in agreement with your classing rules. Specifically regarding if the club class demands a spec tire . This just isn't feasible for me and brings back the point of being all inclusive. The PT rules allow for any car to compete in any class. The underlying fact here is that this is all simple math performance point calculations. Very simple, as in the spreadsheet already has the math done for you. Make it a 10pt (or whatever is agreed upon)threshold into PTE. If PTF car, that car gets all of the PTF points, up to "10" on the PTE side. If they are a PTD car, they have to add weight, change tire size, put the manifold back on in place of the header...whatever to bring the points down to mid PTE points. This covers weight, tires, "his cam is bigger than my cam", bla bla bla. Its black and white, and is posted publicly. Is there a runaway racer? Check the declaration, protest and ask for a tear-down. <-- Yes, Its in the rules! Whatever the course of action you folks take, this should be nailed down soon. Folks are waiting to see where this is headed. Cars need to be built and/or modified.
  32. 1 point
    I agree that an open club class should be part of this discussion and not limiting it to Honda.
  33. 1 point
    I'm all for a spec tire and minimum weight, and very against all out PTE. That said I am alright with opening the rules up a bit to allow other cars to be a part of it. I also feel minimum weight should maybe be set based on the engine, which would allow for the swaps Don has mentioned. A6 being 2230, and basing any other options off of that. I don't really have an opinion on tires, since I was on only one set of Azenis for all of last season, and haven't driven any of the other options.
  34. 1 point
    I am chiming in at Matt's request. Personally, I built my car for the ccc class. Now I am not to sure I like where this going. We should keep the cars as stock as possible, have a spec tire (cheap), and a min weight......end of story. Let the driver win, not his pocket book. Without this I am not gonna be racing next year.
  35. 1 point
    I assume you practice a courtesy lift when you do this...or do you just grind it in there?
  36. 1 point
    I agree that for me it’s very easy and quick. I also realize that MANY people struggle with these kinds of things and it causes more frustration than convenience.
  37. 1 point
    I haven't listened yet, but saw this pop up on my feed this morning: https://play.google.com/music/m/Dl7xwovjzscf422n5rulkct5pme?t=055_Danny_Kok_Ice_Driving_Making_a_Racing_Comeback_-_Speed_Secrets_Podcast
  38. 1 point
    Winnipeg Sports Car Club Ice Racing Winnipeg, Portage la Prairie and Gimli, Manitoba, Canada
  39. 1 point
    Latest event locations and dates below, check here for updates. Venue Locations Winnipeg: Water-Ski Pond (WSP), Lake Shirley, 365 Murdock Road, Winnipeg. Portage la Prairie: Crescent Lake Gimli: Lakeview Resort, 10 Center Street, Gimli, MB, 204 642 8565 Saturday Jan 6 - TnT/Practice and Qualifying at Water Ski Pond (WSP) Note - All new racers must attend. Sunday Jan 7 – *** Season Opener *** Race day #1 at Water Ski Pond (WSP) Saturday Jan 20- Lapping/TnT at Water Ski Pond (WSP) Sunday Jan 21 - Race day #2 at Water Ski Pond (WSP) Saturday Feb 3 – Lapping/TnT at Water Ski Pond (WSP) Sunday Feb 4 - Race #3 at Water Ski Pond (WSP) Sunday Feb 17 – Race day #4 Portage la Prairie Crescent Lake Sunday Feb 18 - Race day #5 Portage la Prairie Crescent Lake Saturday Mar 3 - Race #6 Gimli, MB. Sunday Mar 4 – Race #7 RTI, Studded schedule TBD
  40. 1 point
    Useful for Subaru owners - I recall my clutch being stupidly stiff after a long drive in -30C. Also for any cars with a clutch-delay valve.
  41. 1 point
    Hello, my name is Kristina Hailey. I am in charge of Unrestricted Empire, a local car group in Winnipeg. Today I started a poll on our Facebook group asking what people would like to see from us and so far we’ve had 43 votes about a drift day. A few people have recommended I sign up to this website and some how the to collaborate an event day. UE has a pretty decent following and I truly believe we can create a really fun day for the community. If this is of interest to anyone please let me know so I can speak to someone directly about it.
  42. 1 point
    I've got a door handle or two from a '62 Buick you can have ...
  43. 1 point
    I wonder if wcma gets kick backs from msr . If they do shame on wcma.
  44. 1 point
    Let’s take this opportunity to train the next generation of volunteers with open arms. The road race crew is looking forward to 2018. A new outlook on how important our volunteers are and how to compensate the massive commitment they make coming out to Gimli and dealing with the various extreme conditions they endure. Scott & Mat
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