How girly hairdresser cars keep up!

[Fast_Toys]

These are graphs of Corey's fastest run (I believe he had a cone on this one) versus my fastest run:

Please note the little blue boxes are split points which correspond with the vertical lines on the graphs that follow. That way, you can tell where approximately we both were on the course.

Here is the line we both took. Miata in red and corvette in blue:

http://www.fasttoys.net/corey vs phil line.jpg

Here is a graph showing speed of Miata vs. speed of Corvette

http://www.fasttoys.net/corey vs phil speed.jpg

Lastly, here is a graph showing lateral g's of both cars. As always, Miata is in red.
http://www.fasttoys.net/corey vs phil g.jpg


I'll let you all pitch in and analyze the results. Things I noticed are:

Coreys Miata is faster in the slaloms and the tight sections which are no surprise.

Peak G's in a Miata are damn impressive. Look at Corey's peaks next to mine!

I trail brake far too much. Corey is much more deliberate with his braking points which is something I want to work on.

Corey takes a much wider line into sharp sections and slaloms that I do. I gota work on that!

Corey is faster through the slalom with less peak lateral g's!! That's unbelievable and indicates the vette require a lot more steering input to make it through the cones due to added length. The scary part is it may indicate that Corey can go even faster!

I totally *&*#$ the final slalom or I may have had FTD.

There are a lot of things I can improve on!

Feel free to post any comments. I will have some more data on other cars etc as time permits.

[Kerry]

Just a quick glance, as everyone knows and the graph points to, Phil your car gets up to speed a lot faster than Corey's (Duh!). Looks like you're slowing down more than you have to though, if you look at the graphs showing the G's, it seems to indicate that the grip between the two cars is very comparable - no?

And after talking to Corey, he really liked your car and said it didn't really do anything wrong. From the data I'd think that you suffer from the same thing as me, push harder into the corners and you'll probably kill Corey.

[Kerry]

btw, that data is really cool. How much is that toy again?

[Moving_Target]

$700-750. Looks like a nice measuring tool. Conrad has a G-tech that he used for the 'vette challenge this year. Good for seeing how different drivers attack a course.

[Fast_Toys]

Just a quick glance, as everyone knows and the graph points to, Phil your car gets up to speed a lot faster than Corey's (Duh!). Looks like you're slowing down more than you have to though, if you look at the graphs showing the G's, it seems to indicate that the grip between the two cars is very comparable - no?

And after talking to Corey, he really liked your car and said it didn't really do anything wrong. From the data I'd think that you suffer from the same thing as me, push harder into the corners and you'll probably kill Corey.

Unfortunately a car with a larger turning radius cannot achieve as high a level of grip as the steering wheel angle increases. We can have the same capability for peak g in a large radius corner but in a smaller one, the Miata will prevail. It's pretty easy to see that Corey is faster in the tight sections, we pull similiar g's in the higher speed corners and then the vette is faster in the sections that require acceleration. The one high speed corner going north at the end of the slalom, I should have pushed harder there.

[Kerry]

We can have the same capability for peak g in a large radius corner but in a smaller one, the Miata will prevail.

The slolams are pretty small radius and that graph indicates that your radius is tighter than Corey's in the slolam coming south towards the finish, and that your car has more grip. It dips down a lot lower between peaks which suggests that your wheel is straightening out between the cones more than Corey's. That's a driving style thing. Ie. Corey's turning movements take longer than yours, effectively making his radius longer. But your car still has more grip.

That seems to be counter to what your saying. Or am I just reading that graph wrong?

[rsx_jeremy]

Corey is faster through the slalom with less peak lateral g's!! That's unbelievable and indicates the vette require a lot more steering input to make it through the cones due to added length. The scary part is it may indicate that Corey can go even faster!


How is it unbelievable? Your car is, what, 8 or 10 inches wider than a miata? If you do the math and work out how much tighter your arcs have to be to not hit the cones, and then work out how much difference that makes to lateral acceleration/speed, I think you'd find that width makes a huge difference.

[Fast_Toys]

How is it unbelievable? Your car is, what, 8 or 10 inches wider than a miata? If you do the math and work out how much tighter your arcs have to be to not hit the cones, and then work out how much difference that makes to lateral acceleration/speed, I think you'd find that width makes a huge difference.


I don't mean "unbelievable" as in not possible.. I meant it as a tribute to how well the Miata goes through the slalom and that it could be even faster because it is not near it's peak g's!

Incidentally, I think you answered Kerry's question :)

[Kerry]

Incidentally, I think you answered Kerry's question :)

Not exactly - If the grip was the same and you had to travel farther then sure, but that graph is showing quite a bit more grip for your car at the end of that slolam, and you're still strightening your wheel more.

Call me crazy, but I would guess based on the graph and watching you drive that one right corner at the end of the North slolam that you're slowing down more than you have to, and turning the wheel more than you have to in the slolams.

*shrug*

I'm not trying to point the "You're driving like crap" finger, just in case you feel that I am and are getting defensive. I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing.

And Corey, that graph says you could have carried more speed at the end of the slolam going South. You suck! :p I even saw Phil go faster there, and it's not even his car. :D

[Fast_Toys]

Kerry,

Are you looking at the slalom just before the finish line? If so, I really screwed up there and had to hit the brakes which is why my speed dropped off so much.

I do have to turn the wheel more in the slaloms than a smaller, shorter, less wide car. I am more concerned with peak velocities than g's. Extra g's can be useful only if you are determining if you are over cooking things or going too slow. Since my slalom graphs are narrower than Coreys, you are right that I am turning the wheel faster than corey over the same distance.

I don't take offense. I am trying to learn from this as well. I already picked up a few points that I know I can do much better :) It's hard to compare a Miata to a Corvette but comparing to the 350Z or the mustang gives me a better idea.

I'll post some graphs comparing different cars shortly.

[Kerry]

Kerry,

Are you looking at the slalom just before the finish line? If so, I really screwed up there and had to hit the brakes which is why my speed dropped off so much.

Yes, that's the slolam I'm looking at because it has the biggest difference between yours and Corey's car. I was only looking at G's.

I do have to turn the wheel more in the slaloms than a smaller, shorter, less wide car. I am more concerned with peak velocities than g's. Extra g's can be useful only if you are determining if you are over cooking things or going too slow. Since my slalom graphs are narrower than Coreys, you are right that I am turning the wheel faster than corey over the same distance.

Ah, this is exactly what I'm saying. I think the chart is showing that you can go faster in the solams than you're going. Your wheel movements are faster and more severe than Corey's (This should be assumed by the little extra distance you have to travel) but the large dips in the middle indicate that they're too severe/fast.

I don't take offense. I am trying to learn from this as well. I already picked up a few points that I know I can do much better :) It's hard to compare a Miata to a Corvette but comparing to the 350Z or the mustang gives me a better idea.

Good, I actually want to see you kick ass in that car. I haven't driven it, but I'm sure it can go faster. A stock 89 Vette kicked ass and won US Nationals this year.

[Fast_Toys]

Here's my 3rd run which was my best slalom vs. Corey's 3rd run. As you see, things compare more favorably when you don't royally mess up the slalom!

Corey = Blue
Phil = Pink

http://www.fasttoys.net/corey vs phil g2.jpg

[Kerry]

hmmm, I still don't think you're quite understanding what I'm trying to say. Yes, in that one it's much more comparable. But I'm using one single high datapoint as the threshold - in the other chart is shows that you could reach something like 1.2g in that last turn. All the chart above shows is that you didn't push it as hard with a meager .7g.

If we say the limit through that turn for your car (Because you showed you could get there once) is 1.2g. Then on every other run, you didn't push nearly as hard as you could have.

Make sense?

How can you gauge how much better you could really go by comparing all the averages? Find an anomoly, explain it, then apply it to the rest. That's my logic anyway, and unless there's some variable I'm missing, that one datapoint says you can go faster because you did go faster.

[Fast_Toys]

Yes, I can see I can go faster in the slalom. My problem on some runs is that I don't get the rythm right and then have to hit the brakes near the end or make another correction. Need to work on that.

From looking at everyone else's data, it doesn't look like anyone can sustain their peak G (obtained at some data point) through a slalom. Either that means that an instantaneous peak G is not comparable to transitional values or that nobody was slaloming as hard as they could have.

The person/car that stands out as having the highest peak slalom values is Jordan in the TT.

[JT_TT]

The person/car that stands out as having the highest peak slalom values is Jordan in the TT.

haha that's because i was pissed off that i messed up the north section. the TT can really fly thru slaloms, however, because it does them so fast i ussually get to ahead of myself and turn in to quick and mangle up cones. :conebash:

haha i propose a new rule...you get 1 free cone per event that you can take off of any run you want...

[Kerry]

or that nobody was slaloming as hard as they could have.

This I would believe more than anything else. The only guy I can think of that I personally believe might be pushing it as close to the limit as humanly possible (And also put a huge grin on my face when I went for a ride) was Eric. Holy crap can he slolam.

[Fast_Toys]

Yes. Eric's slalom values were quite high as well and it wasn't even his car! Moral of the story... everyone slalom faster! LOL

[Corey]

Fascinating stuff Phil. Too bad it wasn't in the car for my fast run... Either way, very interesting to see how similar our two cars are in some ways. I need your power and brakes in my car! I damn near stopped at the end of the first slalom in your car.

I'm actually a little surprised that the average G's in a corner are only around 1.1 or 1.2 G. I would have thought that it would be higher for both of our cars.

And Corey, that graph says you could have carried more speed at the end of the slolam going South. You suck! :p I even saw Phil go faster there, and it's not even his car. :D
Haha, I know! Phil danced my car through the slaloms better than I was all day! Slaloms are a constant source of frustration for me, I psyche myself out and lift - which is a BAD THING in a Miata. :banghead:

[20v101]

The one big thing I noticed other then the mentioned things, was your line phil on the way into the east. You really cut that corner on the way in or out and could have held a lot more speed/momentum there.

[yofa]

Haha, I know! Phil danced my car through the slaloms better than I was all day! Slaloms are a constant source of frustration for me, I psyche myself out and lift - which is a BAD THING in a Miata. :banghead:
i think many can agree that your slalom in the f-car this year was the wickedest thing we'd ever seen. those cones deserved to die anyway.

[Corey]

i think many can agree that your slalom in the f-car this year was the wickedest thing we'd ever seen.
Thanks Bob! I'm glad it looked good, I wasn't really in full control through that one. I think I screamed a little. ;)

Phil - another thought: Can you graph lateral G's vs position (and maybe speed vs. position) for my run in your car along with your best run? I definitely feel like I barely brushed the surface of what your car is capable of, I'm curious how to see how the numbers match up with that feeling.

Maybe the same with yours and my runs in my car? I'd guess that you maintained a higher G-load in the slalom in mine than I did, it sure felt that way from the passenger seat.

[Kerry]

Yeah Phil was really moving in the slolam in your Miata.

[z8_canuck]

Dam!! I thought this video was entertaining till I came across all this data.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUu0nKy57hI

[Fast_Toys]

Phil = Red
Corey = Blue

http://www.fasttoys.net/phil and corey miata.jpg

Corey: looks like I pulled some better g's in a few places but you destroyed me in others. It seemed to suit my driving style in a few areas but I was terrible at maintaining speed (which you do so well) and I couldn't get my brain to accept that I could just push the gas to the floor instead of feeding the throttle in! If your car had more power, I think it would be unbeatable!

In regard to braking, I took a look at that and we really don't have higher peak braking forces. I think my car just has better initial bite with the big tires and ABS. It makes it feel like it brakes much harder.

ps. Check out that peak G spike in your car!!

In regard to the 1.2 peak lateral G's, that is exactly what I expected. Car and Driver tried to make an ultimate handling car (at low speeds) and they couldn't get beyond 1.2 g's without creating a vacuum or using aerodynamics. That seems to be the best a car can do with the technology we have right now.

[Fast_Toys]

Corey: Until you mentioned that you thought I did the slalom well in your car, I never looked at it. I added in Jordan in the TT who had the best slalom in the comparisons I have looked at to date. It looks like I was able to beat him in your car (in the slalom anyways).

Is a Miata my true calling???? Throw a small block chevy in there and it could be ;)

Now I just need to learn that in my car!!! GRRRR

Phil = Red
Jordan = Green
Corey = Blue

http://www.fasttoys.net/phil corey miata jordan.jpg

[Fast_Toys]

Phil = Red
Corey = Blue

http://www.fasttoys.net/phil corey vette.jpg

[Kerry]

Is a Miata my true calling???? Throw a small block chevy in there and it could be ;)

Woah, now let's not go crazy here.

[Fast_Toys]

Woah, now let's not go crazy here.


LOL. As much fun as they are to drive, I like the big american muscle :P

[Corey]

I got a chance to look closely at those graphs. Man, there's a lot of detail in there. I could see this being extremely useful to compare between two people driving the same car that have very different driving styles. You could learn where each style works best and come up with a hybrid of the two. :D

I entered the second slalom too fast on my last two runs, meaning I was trying to catch up the whole way through. Result: almost 1 second slower than my previous runs. Bah!

Phil - One more graph request: You vs. me in your Vette, speed vs. distance. I have a feeling that you could drop a lot of time shifting to 2nd in that car. I was surprised at how long I was on the rev limiter in my one run, but I was pretty busy being a bit overwhelmed to even think about shifting. ;)